A poor person is poor because he/she has been ground into the dirt.
Often coming from generations of folks ground down and barren of hope.
As I said before, I was once a young man with no money in my pockets. But I
was never poor.
I remember my first wife's mother asking me if I carried any emergency money
on me. "Don't you have even five dollars for emergency use?" she asked.
"If I had five dollars, it would have been spent on five different
emergencies," I told her. But my wife and I lived in hope. Hope of a
better life, a better job, a door opening through which we might pass into a
Land of Plenty.
And we knew that the only way this could happen would be through our own
labor. My wife worked in the drapery factory folding and packing drapes. I
worked in the same factory, moving along to become assistant production
manager, earning a decent wage.
We had gathered some of the "middle class" trapping, and life was settling
into a pleasant routine. then I became totally blind and we were thrust
back into near poverty.
But even then I looked at it as a simple set back. We took in children, and
forgot to report our earnings. I went back to college at the expense of the
Tax Payers and the Department of Services for the Blind. I sold Fuller
Brush during my evening hours, and on weekends. Never did I think of myself
as poor. Never did I envy my neighbors who had more in the way of material
wealth. We had what we had, and we made due. And because we were not green
with envy, we enjoyed life and our friends.
Carl Jarvis
----- Original Message -----
From: "ted chittenden" <tchittenden@cox.net>
To: "Blind Democracy Discussion List" <blind-democracy@octothorp.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 29, 2013 12:00 PM
Subject: Re: I do have a question:
Carl and all:
A poor person is poor because he/she lacks money, and it is a struggle to
get more, period. One might wish to refresh him- or herself by reading (or
rereading) Michael Harrington's book "The Other America,", especially the
first chapter where Mr. Harrington discusses how the poor in the U.S. are
really invisible because they outwardly behave like the wealthy. And, if you
stop and think about it, what other real choices do they have.
--
Ted Chittenden
Every story has at least two sides if not more.
---- Carl Jarvis <carjar82@gmail.com> wrote:
Miriam, Ted, Stbon and all who wonder what poor is all about,
Isn't it interesting that we go directly to identifying poor people by what
they own? "...a refrigerator, a car, several TV's, a cell phone."
But is that really the measure of the average poor person?
When my first wife and I married in 1960, we rented the made-over upstairs
of an older home in Ballard. We had an old radio, a two party telephone, a
collection of mostly used furniture, and enough clothing to almost fill a
small closet.
But neither Judy or I thought of ourselves as poor. We were "a struggling
young couple". We had no car, taking the bus wherever we needed to go. We
both worked at low paying jobs and saved for several months in order to buy
a 19 inch black and white TV.
Back then I knew what poor people were. It was not based on what they had,
which was usually very little. It was based on the fact that they were cut
off from any hope of advancing economically. They were Black, Indian and
people who had dropped out of school early on. They lived in the slums.
And yet, many of them had far more in the way of material possessions than
Judy and I. Early on I could see colored TV's in living rooms, with decent
trucks or cars parked out front.
But there was never any hope for a brighter future in those houses and
apartments. Folks who came from long lines of poor, disenfranchised people.
The girls got pregnant young and had babies. The boys got drunk often and
made babies.
There is a great deal that goes into the making of a poor person, but
possessions or lack of possessions is not part of it.
Carl Jarvis
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stbon Qofa" <stbonqofa@yahoo.com>
To: "Blind Democracy Discussion List" <blind-democracy@octothorp.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 29, 2013 9:00 AM
Subject: Re: I do have a question:
The average poor person, Miriam, has a refrigerator, a car, several TV's, a
cell phone. Our economic system which leads to new technology benefits more
than the upper class.
________________________________
From: Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@optonline.net>
To: 'Blind Democracy Discussion List' <blind-democracy@octothorp.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 29, 2013 11:55 AM
Subject: RE: I do have a question:
Ted,
I think that the kind of jobs that are available, are those that benefit the
Capitalist class, not the ones that benefit Society. And I think that our
economic system should be benefiting society, and that means people like
you, not the ruling class. What happens in the market should be subservient
to the needs of people. The market isn't some detached, mechanistic god to
be worshipped.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounces@octothorp.org
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounces@octothorp.org] On Behalf Of ted chittenden
Sent: Sunday, December 29, 2013 10:39 AM
To: Blind Democracy Discussion List
Subject: RE: I do have a question:
Frank:
Daniel makes a very good point. The kinds of jobs that are available (and
this includes jobs for the sighted as well as for the blind) are determined
more by the needs of society than by personal interest. Few people recognize
this, but it is quite true.
--
Ted Chittenden
Every story has at least two sides if not more.
---- Frank Ventura <frank.ventura@littlebreezes.com> wrote:
Dave, this is very timely. I had lunch with one of my wife's friends
yesterday. She is the daughter of the founder of P&E electronics, a very
successful electronics firm in Watertown that was founded with a lot of
federal grant money. The company is incorporated in the cayman islands and
pays no federal taxes. As the daughter of the founder she is now a partner
and takes home a 7 figure salary. OK, I digress here. She mentioned that for
some of their manufacturing they use a sheltered workshop in western MA. She
very purposely didn't tell me which workship, but I will make sure to find
out. So they use this sheltered workshop because it costs them, as she put
it, practically nothing. As with many sheltered workshops the employees are
being paid a fraction on minimum wage, which she insists must be lowered or
abolished as she hates the idea of a minimum wage. The folks that work there
either live in state funded group homes or live with family members who are
receiving state !
PCA subsidies. So what miss "no government, government is bad, no taxes for
the wealthy" doesn't say is that her 7 figure a year salary is supported by
lots of socialism, public funds paid by working class tax payers, and
exploited PWDs. As usual it takes a lot of socialism to make capitalism a
success.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: Blind exchange and discussion [mailto:BLIND-X@LISTSERV.ICORS.ORG] On
Behalf Of daniel gobeil
Sent: Sunday, December 29, 2013 7:52 AM
To: BLIND-X@LISTSERV.ICORS.ORG
Subject: Re: I do have a question:
Bravo!, here here!
Boy, you hit the nail right on the head.
Ya know, I have heard my whole life, "you can be anything you want to be".
I'm sorry to say, though I wish it were otherwise, my life experience shows
me it just ain't so.
I have worked off and on at various small jobs, and by and large, I get the
distinct impression that the average sighted person feels extremely
threatened by a blind person who is not bumbling around and constantly
needing help and doing things as well under the circumstances as their
sighted peers.
I remember my first job.
In the little town where I grew up,at the age of seventeen or so, during the
summer I wanted to get a job to earn some spending money.
I asked the guy who ran our local ford dealership if he had anything I could
do part time.
I figured maybe I could wash cars or something.
Well, a couple weeks later, he called us and said he had a job for me.
When I found what it was I was very disappointed, because it was at the
local sheltered workshop, with a bunch of retarded folks.
I determined to stick it out though and started in working.
what they had us doing was, taking metal brackets and attaching little
prewired lamp sockets to them.
These things were eventualy meant to go in to bug zappers.
We were doing this at piece work rates, and I figured, well, I'll just
figure out a system so I can make as much as I can, it was money after all.
Imagine my shock and surprise when the supervisor of the place comes to me
and says; You've got to slow down, you're making everyone else look bad.
Well, that's when I discovered that despite what they tell you, it doesn't
pay to do your best, and it matters more what folks think you are than what
you actualy do.
another incident happened during that same job.
there was a very mildly retarded young man who could drive and had his own
VW, and he and I arranged for him to pick me up and take me home each day as
this was about five miles away in the next town from us.
when my mother found out, she told me, you've gotta pay him something for
his gas, which I thought was absolutely fair.
I arranged to pay him a couple dollars a week for the expense of the fuel.
this was in the late sixties, and gas was relatively cheap then.
Well, next day, the supervisor comes to me and says, you can't pay him any
money, he's being payed for that.
I told him it was my mother's idea and he, the guy who was driving me hadn't
asked me for money, that I and my mom had simply figured it was the right
thing to do.
well, you'd have thought I'd committed a mortal sin by giving that poor guy
a dollar for his gas.
the supervisor told me never to do that again as if I had done something
terrible, and to this day, I don't know how they found out that I'd payed
him a buck for driving me to work and back.
needlesstosay, I was pretty glad to quit there at the end of the summer, and
I never even considered ever working at a sheltered workshop as a client
again.
I can tell you that left a terrible taste in my mouth when I found out that
trying hard or showing the least consideration for someone was treated as
something blameworthy.
since then I look at a lot of the well intentioned things many people do
"for" us and can't help wondering whether there is some kind of alterior
motive there.
there is an expression in spanish, " apocomiento", it means to make things
small,as when they referr to a blind person as "ciegito" rather than
"ciego", which means blind.
We don't do that up here, but so many times, there is this undertone in
personal interaction that feels very much the same way.
I will admit, it seems to have gotten less over the years, but with the
economy the way it is, it wouldn't surprise me if we see it come back with a
vengeance.
Regards; Daniel gobeil
At 04:38 PM 12/28/2013 -0500, you wrote:
>Dave,
>I don't know why we have to struggle so mightily with the issue as to
>whether blindness is a handicap or disability. Since it effects a very
>small portion of the human race, it by definition is an abnormality.
>The public fears it more than cancer or deafness. The crowd defines
>what is OK, and the crowd generally finds blindness to be not OK and
>has incorporated it into their world by calling it a disability. We can
>tell ourselves that we don't have a disability, but to do so is to
>ignore the reality of the power and importance of what the public believes.
>
>Personally, I feel more handicapped by society's beliefs and
>assumptions about blindness than I do about my lack of sight. When I
>used to say that in public, I got the sense that there was a collective
"Aw" from the audience.
>It was like I was so brave and I was trying to minimize what they knew
>were insurmountable troubles by saying that they weren't as bad as the
>tiny bit of unkindness that the audience figured other people might
>occasionally inflict upon me.
>
>I don't say that anymore. The truth for me is almost the opposite of
>how the sighted world perceives it. It's like; hey, learning to do
>things nonvisually is a major life change and to get it right takes an
>enormous output of energy, imagination and willingness to view life
>from a perspective that most others don't share. But, as difficult as
>that may be, it can't hold a candle to dealing with the thousands of
>ways that prejudice rears its ugly head. You may find learning Braille
>difficult, but once you learn it, you know it. On the other hand, there's
no end to the stigma.
>Dealing with the resulting feelings of frustration, humiliation, anger
>and despair that become a regular part of your life is the challenge.
>It's a challenge that doesn't go away because , although things are
>changing, there is a deep root in the public that supports the idea
>that blindness is not acceptable. If you're going to go out into the
>world, you will encounter the fruits of that root, whether it's in
>terms of getting a job, being valued for who you are beyond your sight
>or whatever. People will pity you; people will admire you because you
>tied your own shoes and ignore your academic accomplishments; people
>will be angry that you are standing in the way of them just having a
>good time; people will take advantage of you, because they perceive you as
weak.
>
>It's not everyone, and it may not even be most people, but it happens
>over and over and over. And to survive, you need to embrace the
>assumption that it isn't necessarily going to happen today. Who are the
>available role models for dealing with those realities? Who can teach
>us the mechanics of what is going on and prepare us to flourish despite it?
>Donna
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Sunday, December 29, 2013
On Human Nature
Ted,
Our mark of success is riches beyond our wildest dreams. In that sense
you've set me up. Of course I will find it difficult to point to a major
invention where the inventor did not want to profit financially. It is the
Human version of Pablo's Dogs.
I recall at the Century 21 World's Fair, the row of pigeons pecking out
combinations of lights in order to receive a reward of a grain.
And so we set about doing those things which will bring us our reward. And
our culture extends riches and fame for those of us who get it right.
Of course not all great inventors of great inventions received their just
reward. Many of them discovered that, as they skipped happily to the Patent
Office, that someone had already stolen and patented their invention.
But still, most of us continue to dream of stumbling across a really clever
and new mouse trap that brings the world to our door.
Two thoughts. First, are we sure that what we consider to be modern
conveniences really are? Or have we cluttered our retail shelves with junk
that has been cleverly promoted by Madison Avenue?
And secondly, just because we are accustomed to dreaming of being rewarded
with piles of filthy wealth, is that the only incentive to getting our
inventor juices flowing?
I wonder how much the inventor of the camp fire received? And what about
the guy who made the first bow and arrow?
The wheel should have brought unbelievable wealth to the man who first
developed it.
How could we have advanced our civilization if we did not have some very
basic inventions done for other purposes than to bring personal wealth.
No, I believe that Greed is a fairly recent development in our human
history.
Carl Jarvis
----- Original Message -----
From: "ted chittenden" <tchittenden@cox.net>
To: "Blind Democracy Discussion List" <blind-democracy@octothorp.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 29, 2013 8:01 AM
Subject: Re: On Human Nature
Carl:
Please name for me an inventor of at least one of the modern-day
conveniences we now take for granted in the U.S. (refrigerator, telephone,
radio, television, computer, etc.) who hoped to receive no personal reward
for what he/she did. Also, please name for me a modern-day convenience that
was invented by somebody living in a Communist society.
--
Ted Chittenden
Every story has at least two sides if not more.
---- Carl Jarvis <carjar82@gmail.com> wrote:
Then if humans are unwilling to work collectively for the good of all, why
do they have it in their genes for the masses to work collectively for the
good of the Ruling Class?
We are born with a survival instinct. It is neither selfish or selfless.
It is a survival instinct the same as we find in any living thing, animal or
vegetable. Do we tell the moss growing on the trunk of the apple tree that
it is being selfish? Or the warring Hummingbirds fighting for a place at
the feeder that they should learn to cooperate?
We humans assign made up words to natural behavior and then judge it by the
meanings we have assigned to the Word.
Humans ability to make sounds, organize them and reuse them to convey
information and to then put marks on a piece of writing material and
preserve the words for future use has been as important to our survival as a
dog's nose is to its well being.
But we have to also understand the downside to words. They can trap us and
put our brains into a prison. We become slaves to the words and their
assigned meanings, and abandon the thought process.
Carl Jarvis
----- Original Message -----
From: "ted chittenden" <tchittenden@cox.net>
To: "Blind Democracy Discussion List" <blind-democracy@octothorp.org>
Sent: Saturday, December 28, 2013 7:38 PM
Subject: Re: On Human Nature
Stbon:
True in both cases. However, what I was arguing was that human beings are
born selfish and that selfishness has been how we've survived and prospered
thus far. This is ultimately why capitalism has surplanted Communism.
Communism looks good on paper, but it doesn't work because over the long
term, human beings living in modern societies are not willing to work for
the good of all with no or little reward.
--
Ted Chittenden
Every story has at least two sides if not more.
---- Stbon Qofa <stbonqofa@yahoo.com> wrote:
Ted, But Catholics still need the sacrament of Baptism to cleanse their
souls of original sin, accepting the grace that was made available by the
crucifixion. And we still have to live with the fact that we no longer enjoy
Paradise on Earth. ie the Garden of Eden. Also, Nature v Nurture is a
quantitative debate, how much are we effected by nature v. nurture. It
really doesn't address the assumption of if we are born good or bad.
________________________________
From: ted chittenden <tchittenden@cox.net>
To: Blind Democracy Discussion List <blind-democracy@octothorp.org>
Sent: Saturday, December 28, 2013 6:27 PM
Subject: RE: On Human Nature
Miriam:
In the Roman Catholic faith at least, original sin was cleansed with
Christ's Crucifixion. However, that would not apply to the observed
behaviors of an infant. As Claude noted in an earlier response, the question
of how we humans gain our behaviors is wound up with the Nature vs. Nurture
controversy.
--
Ted Chittenden
Every story has at least two sides if not more.
---- Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@optonline.net> wrote:
This all sounds like a variation on the Christian belief that man is born in
original sin, or is it with original sin? Anyway, I'm not sure that you can
look at how a modern post industrial nation state functions, and analyze the
behavior in terms of the individual's potential for cooperation and self
serving behavior. The dynamics are totally different. Human behavior can be
analyzed through so many different lenses; psychological theories,
philosphies, economic theories etc.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounces@octothorp.org
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounces@octothorp.org] On Behalf Of ted chittenden
Sent: Saturday, December 28, 2013 11:22 AM
To: blind-democracy
Subject: On Human Nature
Hi to all.
I have written that I believe that human beings are basically selfish and
greedy, and that this behavior is a survival instinct. However, the
situation is more complicated than what might appear at first glance.
One of the complications is the inability of human beings to read each
other's minds. We see people doing certain things and we assume selfish
motives, but there is really no sure way of determining that.
Another complication is our history. Roger is partially correct-early humans
relied on their groups for support and sustenance. But those same groups,
when bickering with each other over limited resources, often resorted to
violence against members of the opposite group, the precursor to human wars.
The modern day nation-state is just an extension of early human group
behavior with a lot more at stake.
Still another complication is that what we consider to be necessary for
survival varies from person to person. A week ago today I shared an article
about "Linda Taylor" (it wasn't her real name) who was named by the Chicago
Tribune as "the welfare queen" back in 1975. "Linda Taylor" appears to have
been a pathological liar with the intention of gathering all available
resources to herself for her own purposes. While many of the behaviors
attributed to "Linda Taylor" can be found in some corporate executives, they
most certainly do not represent the vast majority of behaviors among the
population as a whole. If they had, a lot more "welfare queens" would have
been brought to light in the ensuing years.
In summary, then, while I think that greed is a definite part of human
nature, it is not the only part, it varies from person to person, and is
very difficult, if not impossible, to measure.
--
Ted Chittenden
Every story has at least two sides if not more.
_______________________________________________
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Blind-Democracy@octothorp.org
http://www.octothorp.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-democracy
_______________________________________________
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Blind-Democracy@octothorp.org
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Our mark of success is riches beyond our wildest dreams. In that sense
you've set me up. Of course I will find it difficult to point to a major
invention where the inventor did not want to profit financially. It is the
Human version of Pablo's Dogs.
I recall at the Century 21 World's Fair, the row of pigeons pecking out
combinations of lights in order to receive a reward of a grain.
And so we set about doing those things which will bring us our reward. And
our culture extends riches and fame for those of us who get it right.
Of course not all great inventors of great inventions received their just
reward. Many of them discovered that, as they skipped happily to the Patent
Office, that someone had already stolen and patented their invention.
But still, most of us continue to dream of stumbling across a really clever
and new mouse trap that brings the world to our door.
Two thoughts. First, are we sure that what we consider to be modern
conveniences really are? Or have we cluttered our retail shelves with junk
that has been cleverly promoted by Madison Avenue?
And secondly, just because we are accustomed to dreaming of being rewarded
with piles of filthy wealth, is that the only incentive to getting our
inventor juices flowing?
I wonder how much the inventor of the camp fire received? And what about
the guy who made the first bow and arrow?
The wheel should have brought unbelievable wealth to the man who first
developed it.
How could we have advanced our civilization if we did not have some very
basic inventions done for other purposes than to bring personal wealth.
No, I believe that Greed is a fairly recent development in our human
history.
Carl Jarvis
----- Original Message -----
From: "ted chittenden" <tchittenden@cox.net>
To: "Blind Democracy Discussion List" <blind-democracy@octothorp.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 29, 2013 8:01 AM
Subject: Re: On Human Nature
Carl:
Please name for me an inventor of at least one of the modern-day
conveniences we now take for granted in the U.S. (refrigerator, telephone,
radio, television, computer, etc.) who hoped to receive no personal reward
for what he/she did. Also, please name for me a modern-day convenience that
was invented by somebody living in a Communist society.
--
Ted Chittenden
Every story has at least two sides if not more.
---- Carl Jarvis <carjar82@gmail.com> wrote:
Then if humans are unwilling to work collectively for the good of all, why
do they have it in their genes for the masses to work collectively for the
good of the Ruling Class?
We are born with a survival instinct. It is neither selfish or selfless.
It is a survival instinct the same as we find in any living thing, animal or
vegetable. Do we tell the moss growing on the trunk of the apple tree that
it is being selfish? Or the warring Hummingbirds fighting for a place at
the feeder that they should learn to cooperate?
We humans assign made up words to natural behavior and then judge it by the
meanings we have assigned to the Word.
Humans ability to make sounds, organize them and reuse them to convey
information and to then put marks on a piece of writing material and
preserve the words for future use has been as important to our survival as a
dog's nose is to its well being.
But we have to also understand the downside to words. They can trap us and
put our brains into a prison. We become slaves to the words and their
assigned meanings, and abandon the thought process.
Carl Jarvis
----- Original Message -----
From: "ted chittenden" <tchittenden@cox.net>
To: "Blind Democracy Discussion List" <blind-democracy@octothorp.org>
Sent: Saturday, December 28, 2013 7:38 PM
Subject: Re: On Human Nature
Stbon:
True in both cases. However, what I was arguing was that human beings are
born selfish and that selfishness has been how we've survived and prospered
thus far. This is ultimately why capitalism has surplanted Communism.
Communism looks good on paper, but it doesn't work because over the long
term, human beings living in modern societies are not willing to work for
the good of all with no or little reward.
--
Ted Chittenden
Every story has at least two sides if not more.
---- Stbon Qofa <stbonqofa@yahoo.com> wrote:
Ted, But Catholics still need the sacrament of Baptism to cleanse their
souls of original sin, accepting the grace that was made available by the
crucifixion. And we still have to live with the fact that we no longer enjoy
Paradise on Earth. ie the Garden of Eden. Also, Nature v Nurture is a
quantitative debate, how much are we effected by nature v. nurture. It
really doesn't address the assumption of if we are born good or bad.
________________________________
From: ted chittenden <tchittenden@cox.net>
To: Blind Democracy Discussion List <blind-democracy@octothorp.org>
Sent: Saturday, December 28, 2013 6:27 PM
Subject: RE: On Human Nature
Miriam:
In the Roman Catholic faith at least, original sin was cleansed with
Christ's Crucifixion. However, that would not apply to the observed
behaviors of an infant. As Claude noted in an earlier response, the question
of how we humans gain our behaviors is wound up with the Nature vs. Nurture
controversy.
--
Ted Chittenden
Every story has at least two sides if not more.
---- Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@optonline.net> wrote:
This all sounds like a variation on the Christian belief that man is born in
original sin, or is it with original sin? Anyway, I'm not sure that you can
look at how a modern post industrial nation state functions, and analyze the
behavior in terms of the individual's potential for cooperation and self
serving behavior. The dynamics are totally different. Human behavior can be
analyzed through so many different lenses; psychological theories,
philosphies, economic theories etc.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounces@octothorp.org
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounces@octothorp.org] On Behalf Of ted chittenden
Sent: Saturday, December 28, 2013 11:22 AM
To: blind-democracy
Subject: On Human Nature
Hi to all.
I have written that I believe that human beings are basically selfish and
greedy, and that this behavior is a survival instinct. However, the
situation is more complicated than what might appear at first glance.
One of the complications is the inability of human beings to read each
other's minds. We see people doing certain things and we assume selfish
motives, but there is really no sure way of determining that.
Another complication is our history. Roger is partially correct-early humans
relied on their groups for support and sustenance. But those same groups,
when bickering with each other over limited resources, often resorted to
violence against members of the opposite group, the precursor to human wars.
The modern day nation-state is just an extension of early human group
behavior with a lot more at stake.
Still another complication is that what we consider to be necessary for
survival varies from person to person. A week ago today I shared an article
about "Linda Taylor" (it wasn't her real name) who was named by the Chicago
Tribune as "the welfare queen" back in 1975. "Linda Taylor" appears to have
been a pathological liar with the intention of gathering all available
resources to herself for her own purposes. While many of the behaviors
attributed to "Linda Taylor" can be found in some corporate executives, they
most certainly do not represent the vast majority of behaviors among the
population as a whole. If they had, a lot more "welfare queens" would have
been brought to light in the ensuing years.
In summary, then, while I think that greed is a definite part of human
nature, it is not the only part, it varies from person to person, and is
very difficult, if not impossible, to measure.
--
Ted Chittenden
Every story has at least two sides if not more.
_______________________________________________
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in my wanderings...
In my wanderings through the years, I recall the Reservation. It was 1958,
around 9th and Jefferson in downtown Seattle.
A row of single story barrack-like apartments. Shingle roofs, unpainted
shiplap siding, rotten wooden steps up to sagging porches. It was called
the Reservation because the residents were all Indians. Some were
longshoremen, others worked in the woods, while many lived on Indian money
from Alaska or Canada.
My cousin and I were two of three Whites who were accepted into this World
within a World. How we came to be allowed in is another story for another
time.
But Friday night through Sunday morning we sat about chatting, eating,
hustling the women and drinking. The warmth and friendliness was all around
us, that is until too much alcohol had been consumed. Then the fights would
break out. Someone grabbed the last bottle away from someone else and
declared that they were hogging all the booze without paying their fair
share.
Since I was a lover and not a fighter, I did one of two things. I either
backed into a corner and sat real still, or I signaled my cousin and we made
a dash for the door.
One thing for sure. You do not want to be one of only two or three White
guys in a room full of drunken, angry Indians.
But what I set out to say was what these people's apartments looked like.
First, they were plain rooms with walls that had been white washed.
Lighting consisted of bare bulbs dangling from light cords in the middle of
the room. The furniture was plain, bare wooden tables, well battered, with
wooden chairs scattered around. In the corner there was a double mattress
with grimy blankets rumpled on it. Some apartments had a second room with
two or three mattress' crammed in. Personal possessions were kept in
corners in cardboard boxes. On one wall there was an old gas range. Above
it on bare plank shelves were the dishes and pots and pans. Next to the
stove was an old cast iron sink. The only other room was a very small
bathroom with a sink, a toilet and a tub. No cabinet around the sink and no
shower in the tub.
I almost forgot to mention the oil stove in the living room. Most of the
rooms had a double window that could be opened by raising up the bottom
half...if it hadn't swelled shut from moisture.
There were around 30 of these apartments in three rows, with only a gravel
walkway between them.
Carl Jarvis
----- Original Message -----
From: "Miriam Vieni" <miriamvieni@optonline.net>
To: <ceverett@dslextreme.com>; "'Blind Democracy Discussion List'"
<blind-democracy@octothorp.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 29, 2013 3:05 PM
Subject: RE: I do have a question:
Claude,
Thanks for reminding me. I meant to mention, when I was posting, that of
course, people in many other nations have so much less. But if you get to
read Chris Hedges' book, written in 2012 and on Bookshare which describes 4
poverty stricken areas here in the U.S., you'll be reminded of Americans
whose standard of living is like that in some of those other countries. So
many people on Indian reservations, for example, migrant workers in Florida,
a city in New Jersey, of course I forget the name but I recently posted a
different article about the same city, and, I think, an area in West
Virginia.
Miriam
________________________________
From: blind-democracy-bounces@octothorp.org
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounces@octothorp.org] On Behalf Of Claude Everett
Sent: Sunday, December 29, 2013 5:26 PM
To: 'Stbon Qofa'; 'Blind Democracy Discussion List'
Subject: RE: I do have a question:
maybe in this country, but, why can't the economic system benefit the entire
world population, not just a few 1 or 2 %?
Regards,
Claude Everett
"A corporation is "an ingenious device for obtaining profit without
individual responsibility."
Ambrose Bierce
________________________________
From: blind-democracy-bounces@octothorp.org
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounces@octothorp.org] On Behalf Of Stbon Qofa
Sent: Sunday, December 29, 2013 9:01 AM
To: Blind Democracy Discussion List
Subject: Re: I do have a question:
The average poor person, Miriam, has a refrigerator, a car, several TV's, a
cell phone. Our economic system which leads to new technology benefits more
than the upper class.
From: Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@optonline.net>
To: 'Blind Democracy Discussion List' <blind-democracy@octothorp.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 29, 2013 11:55 AM
Subject: RE: I do have a question:
Ted,
I think that the kind of jobs that are available, are those that benefit the
Capitalist class, not the ones that benefit Society. And I think that our
economic system should be benefiting society, and that means people like
you, not the ruling class. What happens in the market should be subservient
to the needs of people. The market isn't some detached, mechanistic god to
be worshipped.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounces@octothorp.org
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounces@octothorp.org] On Behalf Of ted chittenden
Sent: Sunday, December 29, 2013 10:39 AM
To: Blind Democracy Discussion List
Subject: RE: I do have a question:
Frank:
Daniel makes a very good point. The kinds of jobs that are available (and
this includes jobs for the sighted as well as for the blind) are determined
more by the needs of society than by personal interest. Few people recognize
this, but it is quite true.
--
Ted Chittenden
Every story has at least two sides if not more.
---- Frank Ventura <frank.ventura@littlebreezes.com> wrote:
Dave, this is very timely. I had lunch with one of my wife's friends
yesterday. She is the daughter of the founder of P&E electronics, a very
successful electronics firm in Watertown that was founded with a lot of
federal grant money. The company is incorporated in the cayman islands and
pays no federal taxes. As the daughter of the founder she is now a partner
and takes home a 7 figure salary. OK, I digress here. She mentioned that for
some of their manufacturing they use a sheltered workshop in western MA. She
very purposely didn't tell me which workship, but I will make sure to find
out. So they use this sheltered workshop because it costs them, as she put
it, practically nothing. As with many sheltered workshops the employees are
being paid a fraction on minimum wage, which she insists must be lowered or
abolished as she hates the idea of a minimum wage. The folks that work there
either live in state funded group homes or live with family members who are
receiving state !
PCA subsidies. So what miss "no government, government is bad, no taxes for
the wealthy" doesn't say is that her 7 figure a year salary is supported by
lots of socialism, public funds paid by working class tax payers, and
exploited PWDs. As usual it takes a lot of socialism to make capitalism a
success.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: Blind exchange and discussion [mailto:BLIND-X@LISTSERV.ICORS.ORG] On
Behalf Of daniel gobeil
Sent: Sunday, December 29, 2013 7:52 AM
To: BLIND-X@LISTSERV.ICORS.ORG
Subject: Re: I do have a question:
Bravo!, here here!
Boy, you hit the nail right on the head.
Ya know, I have heard my whole life, "you can be anything you want to be".
I'm sorry to say, though I wish it were otherwise, my life experience shows
me it just ain't so.
I have worked off and on at various small jobs, and by and large, I get the
distinct impression that the average sighted person feels extremely
threatened by a blind person who is not bumbling around and constantly
needing help and doing things as well under the circumstances as their
sighted peers.
I remember my first job.
In the little town where I grew up,at the age of seventeen or so, during the
summer I wanted to get a job to earn some spending money.
I asked the guy who ran our local ford dealership if he had anything I could
do part time.
I figured maybe I could wash cars or something.
Well, a couple weeks later, he called us and said he had a job for me.
When I found what it was I was very disappointed, because it was at the
local sheltered workshop, with a bunch of retarded folks.
I determined to stick it out though and started in working.
what they had us doing was, taking metal brackets and attaching little
prewired lamp sockets to them.
These things were eventualy meant to go in to bug zappers.
We were doing this at piece work rates, and I figured, well, I'll just
figure out a system so I can make as much as I can, it was money after all.
Imagine my shock and surprise when the supervisor of the place comes to me
and says; You've got to slow down, you're making everyone else look bad.
Well, that's when I discovered that despite what they tell you, it doesn't
pay to do your best, and it matters more what folks think you are than what
you actualy do.
another incident happened during that same job.
there was a very mildly retarded young man who could drive and had his own
VW, and he and I arranged for him to pick me up and take me home each day as
this was about five miles away in the next town from us.
when my mother found out, she told me, you've gotta pay him something for
his gas, which I thought was absolutely fair.
I arranged to pay him a couple dollars a week for the expense of the fuel.
this was in the late sixties, and gas was relatively cheap then.
Well, next day, the supervisor comes to me and says, you can't pay him any
money, he's being payed for that.
I told him it was my mother's idea and he, the guy who was driving me hadn't
asked me for money, that I and my mom had simply figured it was the right
thing to do.
well, you'd have thought I'd committed a mortal sin by giving that poor guy
a dollar for his gas.
the supervisor told me never to do that again as if I had done something
terrible, and to this day, I don't know how they found out that I'd payed
him a buck for driving me to work and back.
needlesstosay, I was pretty glad to quit there at the end of the summer, and
I never even considered ever working at a sheltered workshop as a client
again.
I can tell you that left a terrible taste in my mouth when I found out that
trying hard or showing the least consideration for someone was treated as
something blameworthy.
since then I look at a lot of the well intentioned things many people do
"for" us and can't help wondering whether there is some kind of alterior
motive there.
there is an expression in spanish, " apocomiento", it means to make things
small,as when they referr to a blind person as "ciegito" rather than
"ciego", which means blind.
We don't do that up here, but so many times, there is this undertone in
personal interaction that feels very much the same way.
I will admit, it seems to have gotten less over the years, but with the
economy the way it is, it wouldn't surprise me if we see it come back with a
vengeance.
Regards; Daniel gobeil
At 04:38 PM 12/28/2013 -0500, you wrote:
>Dave,
>I don't know why we have to struggle so mightily with the issue as to
>whether blindness is a handicap or disability. Since it effects a very
>small portion of the human race, it by definition is an abnormality.
>The public fears it more than cancer or deafness. The crowd defines
>what is OK, and the crowd generally finds blindness to be not OK and
>has incorporated it into their world by calling it a disability. We can
>tell ourselves that we don't have a disability, but to do so is to
>ignore the reality of the power and importance of what the public believes.
>
>Personally, I feel more handicapped by society's beliefs and
>assumptions about blindness than I do about my lack of sight. When I
>used to say that in public, I got the sense that there was a collective
"Aw" from the audience.
>It was like I was so brave and I was trying to minimize what they knew
>were insurmountable troubles by saying that they weren't as bad as the
>tiny bit of unkindness that the audience figured other people might
>occasionally inflict upon me.
>
>I don't say that anymore. The truth for me is almost the opposite of
>how the sighted world perceives it. It's like; hey, learning to do
>things nonvisually is a major life change and to get it right takes an
>enormous output of energy, imagination and willingness to view life
>from a perspective that most others don't share. But, as difficult as
>that may be, it can't hold a candle to dealing with the thousands of
>ways that prejudice rears its ugly head. You may find learning Braille
>difficult, but once you learn it, you know it. On the other hand, there's
no end to the stigma.
>Dealing with the resulting feelings of frustration, humiliation, anger
>and despair that become a regular part of your life is the challenge.
>It's a challenge that doesn't go away because , although things are
>changing, there is a deep root in the public that supports the idea
>that blindness is not acceptable. If you're going to go out into the
>world, you will encounter the fruits of that root, whether it's in
>terms of getting a job, being valued for who you are beyond your sight
>or whatever. People will pity you; people will admire you because you
>tied your own shoes and ignore your academic accomplishments; people
>will be angry that you are standing in the way of them just having a
>good time; people will take advantage of you, because they perceive you as
weak.
>
>It's not everyone, and it may not even be most people, but it happens
>over and over and over. And to survive, you need to embrace the
>assumption that it isn't necessarily going to happen today. Who are the
>available role models for dealing with those realities? Who can teach
>us the mechanics of what is going on and prepare us to flourish despite it?
>Donna
_______________________________________________
Blind-Democracy mailing list
Blind-Democracy@octothorp.org
http://www.octothorp.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-democracy
_______________________________________________
Blind-Democracy mailing list
Blind-Democracy@octothorp.org
http://www.octothorp.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-democracy
_______________________________________________
Blind-Democracy mailing list
Blind-Democracy@octothorp.org
http://www.octothorp.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-democracy
_______________________________________________
Blind-Democracy mailing list
Blind-Democracy@octothorp.org
http://www.octothorp.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-democracy
around 9th and Jefferson in downtown Seattle.
A row of single story barrack-like apartments. Shingle roofs, unpainted
shiplap siding, rotten wooden steps up to sagging porches. It was called
the Reservation because the residents were all Indians. Some were
longshoremen, others worked in the woods, while many lived on Indian money
from Alaska or Canada.
My cousin and I were two of three Whites who were accepted into this World
within a World. How we came to be allowed in is another story for another
time.
But Friday night through Sunday morning we sat about chatting, eating,
hustling the women and drinking. The warmth and friendliness was all around
us, that is until too much alcohol had been consumed. Then the fights would
break out. Someone grabbed the last bottle away from someone else and
declared that they were hogging all the booze without paying their fair
share.
Since I was a lover and not a fighter, I did one of two things. I either
backed into a corner and sat real still, or I signaled my cousin and we made
a dash for the door.
One thing for sure. You do not want to be one of only two or three White
guys in a room full of drunken, angry Indians.
But what I set out to say was what these people's apartments looked like.
First, they were plain rooms with walls that had been white washed.
Lighting consisted of bare bulbs dangling from light cords in the middle of
the room. The furniture was plain, bare wooden tables, well battered, with
wooden chairs scattered around. In the corner there was a double mattress
with grimy blankets rumpled on it. Some apartments had a second room with
two or three mattress' crammed in. Personal possessions were kept in
corners in cardboard boxes. On one wall there was an old gas range. Above
it on bare plank shelves were the dishes and pots and pans. Next to the
stove was an old cast iron sink. The only other room was a very small
bathroom with a sink, a toilet and a tub. No cabinet around the sink and no
shower in the tub.
I almost forgot to mention the oil stove in the living room. Most of the
rooms had a double window that could be opened by raising up the bottom
half...if it hadn't swelled shut from moisture.
There were around 30 of these apartments in three rows, with only a gravel
walkway between them.
Carl Jarvis
----- Original Message -----
From: "Miriam Vieni" <miriamvieni@optonline.net>
To: <ceverett@dslextreme.com>; "'Blind Democracy Discussion List'"
<blind-democracy@octothorp.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 29, 2013 3:05 PM
Subject: RE: I do have a question:
Claude,
Thanks for reminding me. I meant to mention, when I was posting, that of
course, people in many other nations have so much less. But if you get to
read Chris Hedges' book, written in 2012 and on Bookshare which describes 4
poverty stricken areas here in the U.S., you'll be reminded of Americans
whose standard of living is like that in some of those other countries. So
many people on Indian reservations, for example, migrant workers in Florida,
a city in New Jersey, of course I forget the name but I recently posted a
different article about the same city, and, I think, an area in West
Virginia.
Miriam
________________________________
From: blind-democracy-bounces@octothorp.org
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounces@octothorp.org] On Behalf Of Claude Everett
Sent: Sunday, December 29, 2013 5:26 PM
To: 'Stbon Qofa'; 'Blind Democracy Discussion List'
Subject: RE: I do have a question:
maybe in this country, but, why can't the economic system benefit the entire
world population, not just a few 1 or 2 %?
Regards,
Claude Everett
"A corporation is "an ingenious device for obtaining profit without
individual responsibility."
Ambrose Bierce
________________________________
From: blind-democracy-bounces@octothorp.org
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounces@octothorp.org] On Behalf Of Stbon Qofa
Sent: Sunday, December 29, 2013 9:01 AM
To: Blind Democracy Discussion List
Subject: Re: I do have a question:
The average poor person, Miriam, has a refrigerator, a car, several TV's, a
cell phone. Our economic system which leads to new technology benefits more
than the upper class.
From: Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@optonline.net>
To: 'Blind Democracy Discussion List' <blind-democracy@octothorp.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 29, 2013 11:55 AM
Subject: RE: I do have a question:
Ted,
I think that the kind of jobs that are available, are those that benefit the
Capitalist class, not the ones that benefit Society. And I think that our
economic system should be benefiting society, and that means people like
you, not the ruling class. What happens in the market should be subservient
to the needs of people. The market isn't some detached, mechanistic god to
be worshipped.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounces@octothorp.org
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounces@octothorp.org] On Behalf Of ted chittenden
Sent: Sunday, December 29, 2013 10:39 AM
To: Blind Democracy Discussion List
Subject: RE: I do have a question:
Frank:
Daniel makes a very good point. The kinds of jobs that are available (and
this includes jobs for the sighted as well as for the blind) are determined
more by the needs of society than by personal interest. Few people recognize
this, but it is quite true.
--
Ted Chittenden
Every story has at least two sides if not more.
---- Frank Ventura <frank.ventura@littlebreezes.com> wrote:
Dave, this is very timely. I had lunch with one of my wife's friends
yesterday. She is the daughter of the founder of P&E electronics, a very
successful electronics firm in Watertown that was founded with a lot of
federal grant money. The company is incorporated in the cayman islands and
pays no federal taxes. As the daughter of the founder she is now a partner
and takes home a 7 figure salary. OK, I digress here. She mentioned that for
some of their manufacturing they use a sheltered workshop in western MA. She
very purposely didn't tell me which workship, but I will make sure to find
out. So they use this sheltered workshop because it costs them, as she put
it, practically nothing. As with many sheltered workshops the employees are
being paid a fraction on minimum wage, which she insists must be lowered or
abolished as she hates the idea of a minimum wage. The folks that work there
either live in state funded group homes or live with family members who are
receiving state !
PCA subsidies. So what miss "no government, government is bad, no taxes for
the wealthy" doesn't say is that her 7 figure a year salary is supported by
lots of socialism, public funds paid by working class tax payers, and
exploited PWDs. As usual it takes a lot of socialism to make capitalism a
success.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: Blind exchange and discussion [mailto:BLIND-X@LISTSERV.ICORS.ORG] On
Behalf Of daniel gobeil
Sent: Sunday, December 29, 2013 7:52 AM
To: BLIND-X@LISTSERV.ICORS.ORG
Subject: Re: I do have a question:
Bravo!, here here!
Boy, you hit the nail right on the head.
Ya know, I have heard my whole life, "you can be anything you want to be".
I'm sorry to say, though I wish it were otherwise, my life experience shows
me it just ain't so.
I have worked off and on at various small jobs, and by and large, I get the
distinct impression that the average sighted person feels extremely
threatened by a blind person who is not bumbling around and constantly
needing help and doing things as well under the circumstances as their
sighted peers.
I remember my first job.
In the little town where I grew up,at the age of seventeen or so, during the
summer I wanted to get a job to earn some spending money.
I asked the guy who ran our local ford dealership if he had anything I could
do part time.
I figured maybe I could wash cars or something.
Well, a couple weeks later, he called us and said he had a job for me.
When I found what it was I was very disappointed, because it was at the
local sheltered workshop, with a bunch of retarded folks.
I determined to stick it out though and started in working.
what they had us doing was, taking metal brackets and attaching little
prewired lamp sockets to them.
These things were eventualy meant to go in to bug zappers.
We were doing this at piece work rates, and I figured, well, I'll just
figure out a system so I can make as much as I can, it was money after all.
Imagine my shock and surprise when the supervisor of the place comes to me
and says; You've got to slow down, you're making everyone else look bad.
Well, that's when I discovered that despite what they tell you, it doesn't
pay to do your best, and it matters more what folks think you are than what
you actualy do.
another incident happened during that same job.
there was a very mildly retarded young man who could drive and had his own
VW, and he and I arranged for him to pick me up and take me home each day as
this was about five miles away in the next town from us.
when my mother found out, she told me, you've gotta pay him something for
his gas, which I thought was absolutely fair.
I arranged to pay him a couple dollars a week for the expense of the fuel.
this was in the late sixties, and gas was relatively cheap then.
Well, next day, the supervisor comes to me and says, you can't pay him any
money, he's being payed for that.
I told him it was my mother's idea and he, the guy who was driving me hadn't
asked me for money, that I and my mom had simply figured it was the right
thing to do.
well, you'd have thought I'd committed a mortal sin by giving that poor guy
a dollar for his gas.
the supervisor told me never to do that again as if I had done something
terrible, and to this day, I don't know how they found out that I'd payed
him a buck for driving me to work and back.
needlesstosay, I was pretty glad to quit there at the end of the summer, and
I never even considered ever working at a sheltered workshop as a client
again.
I can tell you that left a terrible taste in my mouth when I found out that
trying hard or showing the least consideration for someone was treated as
something blameworthy.
since then I look at a lot of the well intentioned things many people do
"for" us and can't help wondering whether there is some kind of alterior
motive there.
there is an expression in spanish, " apocomiento", it means to make things
small,as when they referr to a blind person as "ciegito" rather than
"ciego", which means blind.
We don't do that up here, but so many times, there is this undertone in
personal interaction that feels very much the same way.
I will admit, it seems to have gotten less over the years, but with the
economy the way it is, it wouldn't surprise me if we see it come back with a
vengeance.
Regards; Daniel gobeil
At 04:38 PM 12/28/2013 -0500, you wrote:
>Dave,
>I don't know why we have to struggle so mightily with the issue as to
>whether blindness is a handicap or disability. Since it effects a very
>small portion of the human race, it by definition is an abnormality.
>The public fears it more than cancer or deafness. The crowd defines
>what is OK, and the crowd generally finds blindness to be not OK and
>has incorporated it into their world by calling it a disability. We can
>tell ourselves that we don't have a disability, but to do so is to
>ignore the reality of the power and importance of what the public believes.
>
>Personally, I feel more handicapped by society's beliefs and
>assumptions about blindness than I do about my lack of sight. When I
>used to say that in public, I got the sense that there was a collective
"Aw" from the audience.
>It was like I was so brave and I was trying to minimize what they knew
>were insurmountable troubles by saying that they weren't as bad as the
>tiny bit of unkindness that the audience figured other people might
>occasionally inflict upon me.
>
>I don't say that anymore. The truth for me is almost the opposite of
>how the sighted world perceives it. It's like; hey, learning to do
>things nonvisually is a major life change and to get it right takes an
>enormous output of energy, imagination and willingness to view life
>from a perspective that most others don't share. But, as difficult as
>that may be, it can't hold a candle to dealing with the thousands of
>ways that prejudice rears its ugly head. You may find learning Braille
>difficult, but once you learn it, you know it. On the other hand, there's
no end to the stigma.
>Dealing with the resulting feelings of frustration, humiliation, anger
>and despair that become a regular part of your life is the challenge.
>It's a challenge that doesn't go away because , although things are
>changing, there is a deep root in the public that supports the idea
>that blindness is not acceptable. If you're going to go out into the
>world, you will encounter the fruits of that root, whether it's in
>terms of getting a job, being valued for who you are beyond your sight
>or whatever. People will pity you; people will admire you because you
>tied your own shoes and ignore your academic accomplishments; people
>will be angry that you are standing in the way of them just having a
>good time; people will take advantage of you, because they perceive you as
weak.
>
>It's not everyone, and it may not even be most people, but it happens
>over and over and over. And to survive, you need to embrace the
>assumption that it isn't necessarily going to happen today. Who are the
>available role models for dealing with those realities? Who can teach
>us the mechanics of what is going on and prepare us to flourish despite it?
>Donna
_______________________________________________
Blind-Democracy mailing list
Blind-Democracy@octothorp.org
http://www.octothorp.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-democracy
_______________________________________________
Blind-Democracy mailing list
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Monday, December 9, 2013
Fw: Here's what we're doing for the holidays:
Subject: Re: Here's what we're doing for the holidays:
I actually get embarrassed for the First Family when I read this sort of
crap.
First, I'd call in whoever dreamed up this "commercial", and I'd fire
him/them. Next I'd send out an apology to those who were the recipients of
such flim flam.
Or maybe I should send a brief invitation right back to the First Family.
"Hi guys! Grab a look at me on your Face Gook Page, all cool in my
Christmas/Holiday jeans and "T" shirt with my name in big red and green
letters. You can see my mailing address and the name of my bank, so your
Christmas/Holiday Check will reach me.
And brother, I am so glad you and yours are having such a fine
Christmas/Holiday there at the old White House. Yeah, when I look around my
neighborhood...if you can still call Detroit a neighborhood, and see the
folks pushing their shopping carts full of junk, looking for a dumpster from
which they might grab half of yesterday's "Happy Meal", I realize just how
good God has been for you all.
Too darn bad everybody can't get the message from your Blessed Life and live
closer to God and that Golden Rule which gives you purpose.
Hey, look. I'm taking up too much of your valuable time. I don't want to
keep you from sending those unmanned drone Christmas/Holiday "gifts" to them
Terrorists.
P.S. Please don't forget my Christmas/Holiday money. We sure could use it
to buy a tank of fuel oil. It would be nice to have a little heat just on
Christmas Day.
Your buddy,
Carl Jarvis
> <http://whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/header_daily_snapshot.gif>
> Sunday, December 8, 2013
> Here's what we're doing for the holidays:
>
> Folks across the country are getting ready for the holidays.
> We're
> celebrating here at the White House, too -- and we want you to be a
> part of
> it.
>
> We've launched our 2013 Holidays page. Check it out for
> exclusive
> videos, recipes, and more.
>
> <http://links.whitehouse.gov/track?type=click&enid=ZWFzPTEmbWFpbGluZ2lkPTIwM
>
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>
> &&100&&&http://www.whitehouse.gov/about/inside-white-house/holidays-2013?utm
>
> _source=email&utm_medium=email&utm_content=email269-text1&utm_campaign=holid
> ays>
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> _source=email&utm_medium=email&utm_content=email269-text1&utm_campaign=holid
> ays>
>
> Click here to see our
> full Holidays page
>
> <http://links.whitehouse.gov/track?type=click&enid=ZWFzPTEmbWFpbGluZ2lkPTIwM
>
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> idays>
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>
>
> P.S. -- Next week we're holding a meet-up here at the White
> House
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> The White House . 1600 Pennsylvania Ave NW . Washington, DC
> 20500 .
> 202-456-1111
>
>
I actually get embarrassed for the First Family when I read this sort of
crap.
First, I'd call in whoever dreamed up this "commercial", and I'd fire
him/them. Next I'd send out an apology to those who were the recipients of
such flim flam.
Or maybe I should send a brief invitation right back to the First Family.
"Hi guys! Grab a look at me on your Face Gook Page, all cool in my
Christmas/Holiday jeans and "T" shirt with my name in big red and green
letters. You can see my mailing address and the name of my bank, so your
Christmas/Holiday Check will reach me.
And brother, I am so glad you and yours are having such a fine
Christmas/Holiday there at the old White House. Yeah, when I look around my
neighborhood...if you can still call Detroit a neighborhood, and see the
folks pushing their shopping carts full of junk, looking for a dumpster from
which they might grab half of yesterday's "Happy Meal", I realize just how
good God has been for you all.
Too darn bad everybody can't get the message from your Blessed Life and live
closer to God and that Golden Rule which gives you purpose.
Hey, look. I'm taking up too much of your valuable time. I don't want to
keep you from sending those unmanned drone Christmas/Holiday "gifts" to them
Terrorists.
P.S. Please don't forget my Christmas/Holiday money. We sure could use it
to buy a tank of fuel oil. It would be nice to have a little heat just on
Christmas Day.
Your buddy,
Carl Jarvis
> <http://whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/header_daily_snapshot.gif>
> Sunday, December 8, 2013
> Here's what we're doing for the holidays:
>
> Folks across the country are getting ready for the holidays.
> We're
> celebrating here at the White House, too -- and we want you to be a
> part of
> it.
>
> We've launched our 2013 Holidays page. Check it out for
> exclusive
> videos, recipes, and more.
>
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> Click here to see our
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>
>
> P.S. -- Next week we're holding a meet-up here at the White
> House
> for our online followers. Want to be here for it? Click here to find
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Sunday, December 8, 2013
The 12 days of Christmas
It seems that most folks have those places where they just can't turn off an
annoying irritation.
It might be the wailing infant in the next apartment, or in the seat behind
you on the long flight.
It could be the pounding heavy metal noise coming out of your son's radio as
he cranks it to the max and turns on the shower and drains the tank.
Or it might be the power mower next door, with the owner revving it up over
and over and over, for hours.
It could even be a small little drip from the bathroom sink in the middle of
the night.
Or it could be Christmas.
Annoyances are a part of our everyday world. Most of them we are able to
push to that place in our brain that is sort of a blind spot. But there are
those that just cry out for our attention. Like fingernails on a chalk
board, they force themselves into our lives.
The good news is that Christmas is only thirty or forty days out of
365. Well, not counting those really annoying July commercials.
It could be worse.
Still, those 12 days of Christmas keep ringing in my head.
Carl Jarvis
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Loran Bailey" <rogerbailey81@aol.com>
To: "Blind Democracy Discussion List" <blind-democracy@octothorp.org>
Sent: Saturday, December 07, 2013 11:02 AM
Subject: Re: Christmas Tree?
I can claim to be an authority on how it is imposed on me. The
celebration has no personal meaning for me. Yet, everywhere I turn I am
having all the symbols pushed on me. I cannot turn on a television or a
radio without it being imposed on me. I cannot walk out the door without
it being imposed on me. I resent that. I fully feel the sentiments that
were expressed in Bah! Humbug! And I did not say that I ignore it. I
said that I try to ignore it. Accomplishing that is made impossible for
me though. I mentioned earlier that I also ignore Thanksgiving and that
even once I had not even thought about it being time for Thanksgiving
until I went out and found all the stores closed and had to figure out
why. There is no chance that I could do that with Christmas. That is why
my annoyance with Christmas is many times greater than my annoyance with
Thanksgiving.
On 12/7/2013 1:44 PM, Alice Dampman Humel wrote:
> I know scads of people who love Christmas, the food, the cookies, the
> parties, the presents, the lights, and wrapping paper, the trees, the
> decorations, and all that who have no ties to religion whatsoever.
> They enjoy all the secular aspects, and if there's some Christian
> source for the festivities, they either don't know about it or don't
> care...now bring us a figgy pudding! haha
> If you ignore Christmas, as you claim, then I'm not sure how much of
> an authority you can be on how people celebrate it, be they religious
> or not...and if you listen to the religious, they often speak out
> against all the above mentioned things, saying they detract from "the
> true meaning of Christmas," so for all, religious and non, there's
> enough Christmas to go around...some choose the religion, some choose
> the secular, and some choose both...or neither!
> On Dec 7, 2013, at 1:24 PM, Roger Loran Bailey <rogerbailey81@aol.com
> <mailto:rogerbailey81@aol.com>> wrote:
>
>> I do my best to ignore Christmas, but it is so imposed on me that it
>> really is hard to ignore. And is there really anything such as a
>> secular aspect to Christmas? Even though some of the impositions are
>> not blatantly religious they are still a part of a celebration of a
>> religious holiday and thereby promote it.
>> On 12/7/2013 9:17 AM, Alice Dampman Humel wrote:
>>> As hard as I try, I can't shoehorn the Christmas tree lighting into
>>> being a religious observance. So all you atheists and agnostics, do
>>> you eschew all observances of Christmas? No trees, no egg nog, no
>>> lights, no Chestnuts Roasting on an Open Fire, no fruitcake...
>>> I mean, I can kind of see it both ways, that especially people who
>>> are of a different religion feel a little pushed aside by the
>>> overtaking of such a big part of the socio-cultural fabric of
>>> Western life by something that arises from a religion that is
>>> antithetical to theirs, but even many Jews, particularly non- or
>>> minimally observant Jews, incorporate the secular aspects of
>>> Christmas into their winter life, and for those with no religion at
>>> all, I, for one, just can't understand the objection to Jingle
>>> Bells, Rudolf the Rednosed Reindeer, Miracle on 34th Street or It's
>>> a Wonderful Life...
>>> Alice
>>> On Dec 7, 2013, at 6:36 AM, Frank Ventura
>>> <frank.ventura@littlebreezes.com
>>> <mailto:frank.ventura@littlebreezes.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> For a party that supposedly hates government funding in general,
>>>> the Tea party seems to court the religious right with state funded
>>>> religious displays.
>>>> Frank
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: blind-democracy-bounces@octothorp.org
>>>> <mailto:blind-democracy-bounces@octothorp.org>
>>>> [mailto:blind-democracy-bounces@octothorp.org] On Behalf Of Miriam
>>>> Vieni
>>>> Sent: Friday, December 6, 2013 10:38 PM
>>>> To: 'Blind Democracy Discussion List'
>>>> Subject: RE: Christmas Tree?
>>>>
>>>> Agnostics and Atheists, join together and tel the Tea Party, "No
>>>> Government Funding for Christmas Trees"!
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: blind-democracy-bounces@octothorp.org
>>>> <mailto:blind-democracy-bounces@octothorp.org>
>>>> [mailto:blind-democracy-bounces@octothorp.org] On Behalf Of Frank
>>>> Ventura
>>>> Sent: Friday, December 06, 2013 9:32 PM
>>>> To: Blind Democracy Discussion List
>>>> Subject: RE: Christmas Tree?
>>>>
>>>> Miriam, OK so should this aging agnostic pack it up and move to
>>>> Timbuktu?
>>>> Frank
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: blind-democracy-bounces@octothorp.org
>>>> <mailto:blind-democracy-bounces@octothorp.org>
>>>> [mailto:blind-democracy-bounces@octothorp.org] On Behalf Of Miriam
>>>> Vieni
>>>> Sent: Friday, December 6, 2013 6:17 PM
>>>> To: 'Blind Democracy Discussion List'
>>>> Subject: Christmas Tree?
>>>>
>>>> Just heard on NPR that the Obama family was involved in the
>>>> National Christmas Tree lighting ceremony this afternoon. This
>>>> national tradition began in 1922. So my father was correct when he
>>>> told me that whatever is said to the contrary, the U.S. is a
>>>> Christian nation. So much for the separation of church and state.
>>>> It's bad enough that the President always says, at the end of a
>>>> speech, "God Bless America". At least that statement doesn't
>>>> indicate whose God. But a Christmas tree? And don't tell me it is
>>>> just a holiday symbol because when the tree was lit, traditional
>>>> Christmas carols were sung.
>>>>
>>>> Miriam
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Blind-Democracy mailing list
>>>> Blind-Democracy@octothorp.org <mailto:Blind-Democracy@octothorp.org>
>>>> http://www.octothorp.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-democracy
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Blind-Democracy mailing list
>>>> Blind-Democracy@octothorp.org
>>>> http://www.octothorp.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-democracy
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Blind-Democracy mailing list
>>>> Blind-Democracy@octothorp.org
>>>> http://www.octothorp.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-democracy
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Blind-Democracy mailing list
>>>> Blind-Democracy@octothorp.org
>>>> http://www.octothorp.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-democracy
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Blind-Democracy mailing list
>>> Blind-Democracy@octothorp.org
>>> http://www.octothorp.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-democracy
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Blind-Democracy mailing list
>> Blind-Democracy@octothorp.org <mailto:Blind-Democracy@octothorp.org>
>> http://www.octothorp.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-democracy
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blind-Democracy mailing list
> Blind-Democracy@octothorp.org
> http://www.octothorp.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-democracy
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
Blind-Democracy mailing list
Blind-Democracy@octothorp.org
http://www.octothorp.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-democracy
annoying irritation.
It might be the wailing infant in the next apartment, or in the seat behind
you on the long flight.
It could be the pounding heavy metal noise coming out of your son's radio as
he cranks it to the max and turns on the shower and drains the tank.
Or it might be the power mower next door, with the owner revving it up over
and over and over, for hours.
It could even be a small little drip from the bathroom sink in the middle of
the night.
Or it could be Christmas.
Annoyances are a part of our everyday world. Most of them we are able to
push to that place in our brain that is sort of a blind spot. But there are
those that just cry out for our attention. Like fingernails on a chalk
board, they force themselves into our lives.
The good news is that Christmas is only thirty or forty days out of
365. Well, not counting those really annoying July commercials.
It could be worse.
Still, those 12 days of Christmas keep ringing in my head.
Carl Jarvis
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Loran Bailey" <rogerbailey81@aol.com>
To: "Blind Democracy Discussion List" <blind-democracy@octothorp.org>
Sent: Saturday, December 07, 2013 11:02 AM
Subject: Re: Christmas Tree?
I can claim to be an authority on how it is imposed on me. The
celebration has no personal meaning for me. Yet, everywhere I turn I am
having all the symbols pushed on me. I cannot turn on a television or a
radio without it being imposed on me. I cannot walk out the door without
it being imposed on me. I resent that. I fully feel the sentiments that
were expressed in Bah! Humbug! And I did not say that I ignore it. I
said that I try to ignore it. Accomplishing that is made impossible for
me though. I mentioned earlier that I also ignore Thanksgiving and that
even once I had not even thought about it being time for Thanksgiving
until I went out and found all the stores closed and had to figure out
why. There is no chance that I could do that with Christmas. That is why
my annoyance with Christmas is many times greater than my annoyance with
Thanksgiving.
On 12/7/2013 1:44 PM, Alice Dampman Humel wrote:
> I know scads of people who love Christmas, the food, the cookies, the
> parties, the presents, the lights, and wrapping paper, the trees, the
> decorations, and all that who have no ties to religion whatsoever.
> They enjoy all the secular aspects, and if there's some Christian
> source for the festivities, they either don't know about it or don't
> care...now bring us a figgy pudding! haha
> If you ignore Christmas, as you claim, then I'm not sure how much of
> an authority you can be on how people celebrate it, be they religious
> or not...and if you listen to the religious, they often speak out
> against all the above mentioned things, saying they detract from "the
> true meaning of Christmas," so for all, religious and non, there's
> enough Christmas to go around...some choose the religion, some choose
> the secular, and some choose both...or neither!
> On Dec 7, 2013, at 1:24 PM, Roger Loran Bailey <rogerbailey81@aol.com
> <mailto:rogerbailey81@aol.com>> wrote:
>
>> I do my best to ignore Christmas, but it is so imposed on me that it
>> really is hard to ignore. And is there really anything such as a
>> secular aspect to Christmas? Even though some of the impositions are
>> not blatantly religious they are still a part of a celebration of a
>> religious holiday and thereby promote it.
>> On 12/7/2013 9:17 AM, Alice Dampman Humel wrote:
>>> As hard as I try, I can't shoehorn the Christmas tree lighting into
>>> being a religious observance. So all you atheists and agnostics, do
>>> you eschew all observances of Christmas? No trees, no egg nog, no
>>> lights, no Chestnuts Roasting on an Open Fire, no fruitcake...
>>> I mean, I can kind of see it both ways, that especially people who
>>> are of a different religion feel a little pushed aside by the
>>> overtaking of such a big part of the socio-cultural fabric of
>>> Western life by something that arises from a religion that is
>>> antithetical to theirs, but even many Jews, particularly non- or
>>> minimally observant Jews, incorporate the secular aspects of
>>> Christmas into their winter life, and for those with no religion at
>>> all, I, for one, just can't understand the objection to Jingle
>>> Bells, Rudolf the Rednosed Reindeer, Miracle on 34th Street or It's
>>> a Wonderful Life...
>>> Alice
>>> On Dec 7, 2013, at 6:36 AM, Frank Ventura
>>> <frank.ventura@littlebreezes.com
>>> <mailto:frank.ventura@littlebreezes.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> For a party that supposedly hates government funding in general,
>>>> the Tea party seems to court the religious right with state funded
>>>> religious displays.
>>>> Frank
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: blind-democracy-bounces@octothorp.org
>>>> <mailto:blind-democracy-bounces@octothorp.org>
>>>> [mailto:blind-democracy-bounces@octothorp.org] On Behalf Of Miriam
>>>> Vieni
>>>> Sent: Friday, December 6, 2013 10:38 PM
>>>> To: 'Blind Democracy Discussion List'
>>>> Subject: RE: Christmas Tree?
>>>>
>>>> Agnostics and Atheists, join together and tel the Tea Party, "No
>>>> Government Funding for Christmas Trees"!
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: blind-democracy-bounces@octothorp.org
>>>> <mailto:blind-democracy-bounces@octothorp.org>
>>>> [mailto:blind-democracy-bounces@octothorp.org] On Behalf Of Frank
>>>> Ventura
>>>> Sent: Friday, December 06, 2013 9:32 PM
>>>> To: Blind Democracy Discussion List
>>>> Subject: RE: Christmas Tree?
>>>>
>>>> Miriam, OK so should this aging agnostic pack it up and move to
>>>> Timbuktu?
>>>> Frank
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: blind-democracy-bounces@octothorp.org
>>>> <mailto:blind-democracy-bounces@octothorp.org>
>>>> [mailto:blind-democracy-bounces@octothorp.org] On Behalf Of Miriam
>>>> Vieni
>>>> Sent: Friday, December 6, 2013 6:17 PM
>>>> To: 'Blind Democracy Discussion List'
>>>> Subject: Christmas Tree?
>>>>
>>>> Just heard on NPR that the Obama family was involved in the
>>>> National Christmas Tree lighting ceremony this afternoon. This
>>>> national tradition began in 1922. So my father was correct when he
>>>> told me that whatever is said to the contrary, the U.S. is a
>>>> Christian nation. So much for the separation of church and state.
>>>> It's bad enough that the President always says, at the end of a
>>>> speech, "God Bless America". At least that statement doesn't
>>>> indicate whose God. But a Christmas tree? And don't tell me it is
>>>> just a holiday symbol because when the tree was lit, traditional
>>>> Christmas carols were sung.
>>>>
>>>> Miriam
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Blind-Democracy mailing list
>>>> Blind-Democracy@octothorp.org <mailto:Blind-Democracy@octothorp.org>
>>>> http://www.octothorp.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-democracy
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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The Christmas Tree, Santa Claus and Jesus Christ
Christmas was originally taken by the Church because it was already
an established, popular Pagan holiday.
Now the Ruling Class has seized the
day...or days...as a Commercial Holiday Season.
In fact, Santa Claus is no longer a fat little Saint, dropping off gifts in
the dark of night. He is on every street corner and on every TV set,
hawking his wares to consumers. No people left, only consumers or potential
consumers.
Christians should be thankful that Jesus Christ is not being shoved in the
publics face with a new car or a super duper mix master, while some slinky
chick drapes herself around his feet.
Carl Jarvis
an established, popular Pagan holiday.
Now the Ruling Class has seized the
day...or days...as a Commercial Holiday Season.
In fact, Santa Claus is no longer a fat little Saint, dropping off gifts in
the dark of night. He is on every street corner and on every TV set,
hawking his wares to consumers. No people left, only consumers or potential
consumers.
Christians should be thankful that Jesus Christ is not being shoved in the
publics face with a new car or a super duper mix master, while some slinky
chick drapes herself around his feet.
Carl Jarvis
Christmas Tree, Oh Christmas Tree!
There is nothing freakier than spending Christmas in Florida. Fake snow,
fake snowmen, fake everything. And over all of the tinsel we hear, "Sleigh
bells ring, are you listening", and, "Walking in the winter wonderland".
Strange behavior. But what else can you expect from folks who think there
are harps and choirs in a place called Heaven?
Carl Jarvis
fake snowmen, fake everything. And over all of the tinsel we hear, "Sleigh
bells ring, are you listening", and, "Walking in the winter wonderland".
Strange behavior. But what else can you expect from folks who think there
are harps and choirs in a place called Heaven?
Carl Jarvis
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