---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@optonline.net>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2014 21:55:33 -0400
Subject: RE: more on the Catholic babies and Free Will
To: Blind Democracy Discussion List <blind-democracy@octothorp.org>
Carl,
I like your explanation at the beginning of your email regarding why none of
us has free will and I agree wholeheartedly, of my own free will.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounces@octothorp.org
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounces@octothorp.org] On Behalf Of Carl Jarvis
Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2014 9:48 PM
To: Blind Democracy Discussion List
Subject: Re: more on the Catholic babies and Free Will
Pam, Alice and All Believers in Free Will,
Allow me to state my bias right from the git go.
There Is No Such A Thing As Free Will!!!
From the moment of our conception we are shaped and pressured and
influenced. Long before we are aware of our own being, while we are totally
dependent upon our Mother's womb. By the time we struggle out of the birth
canal, much of our future has already been decided. Our parents, their
parents and so on, back to the beginning of Man, determine much of who we
are and what we will be able to do. How we are nourished and loved and what
we are taught, both informally as well as formally, establishes a base of
information from which we draw in making Life's Choices.
Every choice I make is based on all of those factors and more.
Becoming totally blind at the age of 30 cut off many choices I might have
made as a sighted person, but opened other doors. So I "freely"
chose to become a rehabilitation teacher of the blind, a choice I had never
entertained during my years as a sighted man.
My friend said, "I became a Pastor by my own Free Will". But he also told
me, " God opened doors and showed me the way".
So, which was it?
To me, saying that I can exercise my free will is sheer silliness.
Even deciding to write this post is based on countless previous decisions.
I chose to read email rather than to do my work. Free choice? It was a
long day, beginning with having to bring Winston the Wonder Cat, to have an
eye enucleation, then spending hours in the office contacting clients and
future clients, hunting down information and resources, returning to the
vet's to pick up Winston, bring him home and spend time babying him, and
back to the office without dinner. So I chose to fiddle with my email.
I try to figure out where I exercised Free Will in my day to day life.
I like to think that I'm an independent blind man. But if I am, I can't
find out just where that is.
So, before I begin going in circles, I will go, of my own free will, and
grab those little chocolate doughnuts I stuck in the freezer.
Carl Jarvis
On 6/10/14, Pam Mathers <lind139@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Carl, I agree with Alice. No one forces anyone to follow God or to
> become a Christian. I'm sure when you were a Christian you became one
> by choice, not because someone told you that you must do it. People
> who become Christians do so by choice, not because they are forced to
> so I don't understand where this idea of dictatorship comes in.
> Christians are not slaves.
> On Jun 10, 2014, at 10:51 AM, Alice Dampman Humel wrote:
>
>> Oh, come on now Carl, you know better than that, haha...I would think
>> that even in the speaking in tongues, fundamentalist brand of
>> fanatical Christianity that you used to inhabit, the concept of free
>> will was rattling around in there somewhere...and God, as he defines
>> himself, or, if you prefer, the way men have defined/created him does
>> permit dissent...otherwise, you would be forced to believe in Him,
>> and you would not have the choice of which you have availed yourself,
>> not to believe, to decline...
>> That's not a dictator by my definition...a dictator would say,
>> believe in me, follow my ways, or off with your head or some other
>> form of coercion or punishment...and, since in your unbelief, you
>> don't believe in an afterlife or any kind of Deity whatsoever, even
>> that threat of eternal damnation is, for you, an empty one...Alice On
>> Jun 10, 2014, at 1:09 AM, Carl Jarvis <carjar82@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. The examples
>>> are all around us, and still we want to worship an absolute
>>> dictator. God Almighty.
>>>
>>> carl jarvis
>>> on Earth be so cruel and hard hearted, if On 6/9/14, Miriam Vieni
>>> <miriamvieni@optonline.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Williams writes: "It gets worse. One week after revelations of how
>>>> over the span of 35 years, a County Galway home for unwed mothers
>>>> cavalierly disposed of the bodies of nearly 800 babies and toddlers
>>>> on a site that held a septic tank, new reports are leveling a whole
>>>> different set of charges about what happened to the children of
>>>> those Irish homes."
>>>>
>>>> (photo: AdrianNunez/Shutterstock.com)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The Catholic Irish Babies Scandal: It Gets Much Worse By Mary
>>>> Elizabeth Williams, Salon
>>>> 09 June 14
>>>>
>>>> New revelations about unauthorized vaccine trials
>>>>
>>>> It gets worse. One week after revelations of how over the span of
>>>> 35 years, a County Galway home for unwed mothers cavalierly
>>>> disposed of the bodies of nearly 800 babies and toddlers on a site
>>>> that held a septic tank, new reports are leveling a whole different
>>>> set of charges about what happened to the children of those Irish
>>>> homes.
>>>> In harrowing new information revealed this weekend, the Daily Mail
>>>> has uncovered medical records that suggest 2,051 children across
>>>> several Irish care homes were given a diphtheria vaccine from
>>>> pharmaceutical company Burroughs Wellcome in a suspected illegal
>>>> drug trial that ran from 1930 to 1936. As the Mail reports,
>>>> "Michael Dwyer, of Cork University's School of History, found the
>>>> child vaccination data by trawling through tens of thousands of
>>>> medical journal articles and archive files. He discovered that the
>>>> trials were carried out before the vaccine was made available for
>>>> commercial use in the UK." There is no evidence yet - and there may
>>>> never be
>>>> - that any family consent was ever offered, or about how many
>>>> children had adverse effects or died as a result of the
>>>> vaccinations. Dwyer told the Mail, "The fact that no record of
>>>> these trials can be found in the files relating to the Department
>>>> of Local Government and Public Health, the Municipal Health Reports
>>>> relating to Cork and Dublin, or the Wellcome Archives in London,
>>>> suggests that vaccine trials would not have been acceptable to
>>>> government, municipal authorities, or the general public.
>>>> However, the fact that reports of these trials were published in
>>>> the most prestigious medical journals suggests that this type of
>>>> human experimentation was largely accepted by medical practitioners
>>>> and facilitated by authorities in charge of children's residential
>>>> institutions." In a related story, GSK - formerly Wellcome -
>>>> revealed Monday on Newstalk Radio that 298 children in 10 different
>>>> care homes were involved in medical trials in the '60s and '70s
>>>> that left "80 children ill after they were accidentally
>>>> administered a vaccine intended for cattle."
>>>> Irish Minister of State for Training and Skills Ciaran Cannon has
>>>> called for a public inquiry into the treatment of the children and
>>>> their deaths.
>>>> The
>>>> archbishop of Dublin, Diarmuid Martin, has also called for an
>>>> investigation, adding that it should be free of Catholic Church
>>>> interference. "We have to look at the whole culture of mother and
>>>> baby homes; they're talking about medical experiments there," he
>>>> told RTE Radio this weekend. "They're very complicated and very
>>>> sensitive issues, but the only way we will come out of this
>>>> particular period of our history is when the truth comes out." And
>>>> a spokesman for GSK said the latest revelations, "if true, are
>>>> clearly very distressing."
>>>> This is not even the first time information on these kinds of
>>>> vaccine trials has come to light. In 2010, the Irish Independent
>>>> uncovered how children born in the homes were subjected to a single
>>>> "four-in-one" vaccine trial without their mothers' permission. The
>>>> children often didn't even know what they'd been subjected to until
>>>> well into adulthood. Appallingly, Ireland had no laws regarding
>>>> medical testing on humans until 1987. Mari Steed, who was born at
>>>> the Bessborough home in the '60s, told the Sunday Independent, "We
>>>> were used as human guinea pigs."
>>>> What Ireland is only now beginning to fully investigate and
>>>> understand is a story involving potentially thousands of children
>>>> who were almost certainly neglected and mistreated, and whose
>>>> deaths were addressed as a mere trash disposal issue. It is now
>>>> believed a total of upward of 4,000 children were similarly
>>>> disposed of in other homes across the country. It's a story of
>>>> untold even higher numbers of children who were unwitting subjects
>>>> in a vaccine test that further refused to see them as human beings,
>>>> capable of fear and pain. And an interesting insight into why so
>>>> many children may have been so casually treated and tossed away was
>>>> revealed in a recent feature on the scandal in the Independent.
>>>> Babies born to unwed mothers - and this, let it be noted, would
>>>> have included mothers who were raped - "were denied baptism and, if
>>>> they died from the illness and disease rife in such facilities,
>>>> also denied a Christian burial." In other words, the Catholic
>>>> institutions that these women and their children were forced to
>>>> turn to as their only refuge viciously turned their backs on them -
>>>> treating them, quite literally, as garbage. This is abuse of the
>>>> highest order. Abuse in life, abuse in death. Carried out by
>>>> religious orders so warped, so perverted in their utter lack of
>>>> mercy that they participated in the suffering of an unfathomable
>>>> number of babies and children. This is what the Catholic Church of
>>>> Ireland is capable of, when it is given free rein over the bodies
>>>> of its most vulnerable members. And an official inquiry hasn't even
>>>> begun. As Michael Dwyer told the Mail this weekend, "What I have
>>>> found is just the tip of a very large and submerged iceberg."
>>>>
>>>> Error! Hyperlink reference not valid. Error! Hyperlink reference
>>>> not valid.
>>>>
>>>> (photo: AdrianNunez/Shutterstock.com)
>>>> http://www.salon.com/2014/06/09/the_catholic_irish_babies_scandal_i
>>>> t_gets_mu
>>>> ch_worse/http://www.salon.com/2014/06/09/the_catholic_irish_babies_
>>>> scandal_i
>>>> t_gets_much_worse/
>>>> The Catholic Irish Babies Scandal: It Gets Much Worse By Mary
>>>> Elizabeth Williams, Salon
>>>> 09 June 14
>>>> New revelations about unauthorized vaccine trials t gets worse. One
>>>> week after revelations of how over the span of 35 years, a County
>>>> Galway home for unwed mothers cavalierly disposed of the bodies of
>>>> nearly 800 babies and toddlers on a site that held a septic tank,
>>>> new reports are leveling a whole different set of charges about
>>>> what happened to the children of those Irish homes.
>>>> In harrowing new information revealed this weekend, the Daily Mail
>>>> has uncovered medical records that suggest 2,051 children across
>>>> several Irish care homes were given a diphtheria vaccine from
>>>> pharmaceutical company Burroughs Wellcome in a suspected illegal
>>>> drug trial that ran from 1930 to 1936. As the Mail reports,
>>>> "Michael Dwyer, of Cork University's School of History, found the
>>>> child vaccination data by trawling through tens of thousands of
>>>> medical journal articles and archive files. He discovered that the
>>>> trials were carried out before the vaccine was made available for
>>>> commercial use in the UK." There is no evidence yet - and there may
>>>> never be
>>>> - that any family consent was ever offered, or about how many
>>>> children had adverse effects or died as a result of the
>>>> vaccinations. Dwyer told the Mail, "The fact that no record of
>>>> these trials can be found in the files relating to the Department
>>>> of Local Government and Public Health, the Municipal Health Reports
>>>> relating to Cork and Dublin, or the Wellcome Archives in London,
>>>> suggests that vaccine trials would not have been acceptable to
>>>> government, municipal authorities, or the general public.
>>>> However, the fact that reports of these trials were published in
>>>> the most prestigious medical journals suggests that this type of
>>>> human experimentation was largely accepted by medical practitioners
>>>> and facilitated by authorities in charge of children's residential
>>>> institutions." In a related story, GSK - formerly Wellcome -
>>>> revealed Monday on Newstalk Radio that 298 children in 10 different
>>>> care homes were involved in medical trials in the '60s and '70s
>>>> that left "80 children ill after they were accidentally
>>>> administered a vaccine intended for cattle."
>>>> Irish Minister of State for Training and Skills Ciaran Cannon has
>>>> called for a public inquiry into the treatment of the children and
>>>> their deaths.
>>>> The
>>>> archbishop of Dublin, Diarmuid Martin, has also called for an
>>>> investigation, adding that it should be free of Catholic Church
>>>> interference. "We have to look at the whole culture of mother and
>>>> baby homes; they're talking about medical experiments there," he
>>>> told RTE Radio this weekend. "They're very complicated and very
>>>> sensitive issues, but the only way we will come out of this
>>>> particular period of our history is when the truth comes out." And
>>>> a spokesman for GSK said the latest revelations, "if true, are
>>>> clearly very distressing."
>>>> This is not even the first time information on these kinds of
>>>> vaccine trials has come to light. In 2010, the Irish Independent
>>>> uncovered how children born in the homes were subjected to a single
>>>> "four-in-one" vaccine trial without their mothers' permission. The
>>>> children often didn't even know what they'd been subjected to until
>>>> well into adulthood. Appallingly, Ireland had no laws regarding
>>>> medical testing on humans until 1987. Mari Steed, who was born at
>>>> the Bessborough home in the '60s, told the Sunday Independent, "We
>>>> were used as human guinea pigs."
>>>> What Ireland is only now beginning to fully investigate and
>>>> understand is a story involving potentially thousands of children
>>>> who were almost certainly neglected and mistreated, and whose
>>>> deaths were addressed as a mere trash disposal issue. It is now
>>>> believed a total of upward of 4,000 children were similarly
>>>> disposed of in other homes across the country. It's a story of
>>>> untold even higher numbers of children who were unwitting subjects
>>>> in a vaccine test that further refused to see them as human beings,
>>>> capable of fear and pain. And an interesting insight into why so
>>>> many children may have been so casually treated and tossed away was
>>>> revealed in a recent feature on the scandal in the Independent.
>>>> Babies born to unwed mothers - and this, let it be noted, would
>>>> have included mothers who were raped - "were denied baptism and, if
>>>> they died from the illness and disease rife in such facilities,
>>>> also denied a Christian burial." In other words, the Catholic
>>>> institutions that these women and their children were forced to
>>>> turn to as their only refuge viciously turned their backs on them -
>>>> treating them, quite literally, as garbage. This is abuse of the
>>>> highest order. Abuse in life, abuse in death. Carried out by
>>>> religious orders so warped, so perverted in their utter lack of
>>>> mercy that they participated in the suffering of an unfathomable
>>>> number of babies and children. This is what the Catholic Church of
>>>> Ireland is capable of, when it is given free rein over the bodies
>>>> of its most vulnerable members. And an official inquiry hasn't even
>>>> begun. As Michael Dwyer told the Mail this weekend, "What I have
>>>> found is just the tip of a very large and submerged iceberg."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>
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>
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