Fwd: [acb-chat] charges by doctors

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Carl Jarvis via acb-chat <acb-chat@acblists.org>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2017 23:22:06 +0000
Subject: Re: [acb-chat] charges by doctors
To: "General discussion list for ACB members and friends where a wide
range of topics from blindness to politics, issues of the day or
whatever comes to mind are welcome. This is a free form discussion
list." <acb-chat@acblists.org>
Cc: Carl Jarvis <carjar82@gmail.com>

Clifford, Karen and All,
The problem, as I see it, is that we all suffer from Selective Memory.
Sure, doctors still made house calls when I was a boy, and even
dentists. My grandma Ludwig had her teeth pulled right in her own
kitchen. The dentist just sat her on a chair, put a bucket of water
between her feet and began yanking them out. Mother told me that
story, and I never had the nerve to ask Grandma how she stood the
pain, or what they gave her to deaden her mouth...if anything.
My point being that while it was cheaper than today's out of control
costs, the service often left lots to be desired. Even as late as
1965, when I was recovering from detached retina surgery, my
Ophthalmologist came to my house for a follow up examination. My
mother-in-law died in 1966 from breast cancer. They had what they
called Internal Medicine Men, doctors who specialized in mixing the
deadly drugs of that day into Chemo Cocktails. Techniques back then
were very crude. But our health insurance covered everything. In
fact, my mother-in-law sent in her claim on her insurance, and my
father-in-law sent the claim in on his insurance. They actually put
money in the bank...until she died. Of course the insurance companies
caught this little oversight and changed the law so that it was no
longer possible for folks to profit through double dipping. While I
agree that this practice of charging two different insurance companies
for the same medical bill was no more right than today's insurance
companies that charge outrageous rates and only cover 60% of the cost.
Another big change was the fact that our family doctor took care of
about 95% of our needs, referring us to specialists as a last resort.
Not today. Now our old family doctor has been reduced to being a
traffic cop. He/she gives you a quick once over and refers you to the
appropriate specialist. Along the way you may also need Xrays, which
in turn need the expert eye of a specialist who interprets the
results. You are billed by each of these folks as if you had multiple
problems.
But the rising cost...the out of control exploding costs, were not
brought about by big government interference. It's the other way
around. Out of control costs finally drove the government to develop
a method of checking this out pouring, this tidal wave of medical
expenses. The American Medical Association(AMA), functioned as a
Doctor's Union, protecting the nation from an overload of doctors,
which would drive doctors wages down. Working together with the large
Medical Schools and Hospital administrators, rules and conditions were
establish to allow only a limited number of doctors through the system
each year. The wealthier doctors began to improve their earnings by
investing in the fast growing Drug Companies, that merged and merged
again into huge corporations. These monstrous corporations informally
set prices and controlled availability of generic medications, driving
prices higher. Hospitals merged and became giant medical centers,
cutting out many jobs along the way.
Left alone for the "free market" to adjust prices, the Health
Corporations would soon have eliminated all their "competition", and
had free reign over costs and prices. The government was forced to
step in. After all, the government is the representative of the
American People. So you might say, We Stepped In. Along came
Medicare to assist the nation's elders from being resigned to the Poor
House. And because the private sector was bungling the job, this
government of ours established the Veteran's Administration(VA), and
established a most effective program. What is happening to the VA
today is ugly. As if they were dealing in widgets instead of human
beings, congress picked away at the VA's budget. Pretending to
believe that the quality would not be effected by cutting
budgets...trimming off the fat, is how these fat cats put it. And
when the fat had been cut to the bone and demands had been increased
on fewer staff, these same elected officials stomped, snorted and
bleated that here was proof of Big Government's incompetency. And
these same elected officials turned right around and voted, with no
questions asked, billions of extra dollars to the Mother of All Big
Government Boondoggles, the Pentagon.
But hey! why not! Isn't this the great-great-great grandson of the
Great White Father who spoke to the Indigenous folk who already lived
here when we "Discovered" America?
Lie to the Indians(American), lie to the Slaves, lie to the Veterans,
and lie to the Working Class men and women whose sweat and toil made
the Great White Father Great. Yes, there is one thing the Great White
Father contributed...he was always White.
In my humble, but well thought out opinion, the real reason for the
never ending increases to our medical costs is the same one that has
placed our children in deep debt in order to become educated and
hopefully one fine day to take control away from us and set this Ship
of Fools on a new course toward the rising sun instead of aiming for
the setting sun, that issue is the rise of Greed. Greed. Think of a
fast moving cancer, devouring all in its path. That's Greed. Greed
showed up in the Bible as a Serpent. Greed has lurked in the King's
palaces, in the merchant's counting houses, in the factory owners
sprawling mills, and today Greed has moved from the back bed room into
the Living Room and is demanding everything we own or thought we
owned. Greed has helped us create this Fabulous Make Believe World in
which we worship a made up thing called Money. Instead of measuring
one another by our accomplishments...our good deeds, we count success
in green bills. Money is made up. Money cannot be planted and new
money grown. It can't be eaten or used to fertilize our crops or feed
our livestock.
All money is good for in the long run is to buy our way into Hell.

Carl Jarvis


On 5/14/17, Clifford via acb-chat <acb-chat@acblists.org> wrote:
> Dear Karen:
>
> I am old enough to remember a time when we had no Medicare,
> Medicaid and especially no mandated insurance. The fees for doctors were a
> fraction of those today. Thirty dollars a day were the going rate for
> hospital stays in 1968, the year I hung out my shingle.
>
>
>
> The doctors that treated our family carried many patients
> who could not afford the charges, even at the low rates. I did know of one
> doctor who made a home visit, as many did back then, and when the family did
> not have the ability, he took a cow as payment. The problem in that case
> was that the doctor had recommended that the parents
>
> make sure the child got more milk.
>
>
>
> Yours Truly,
>
>
>
> Clifford Wilson
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Karen Rose [mailto:rosekm@earthlink.net]
> Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2017 2:37 PM
> To: Clifford <clifford@tds.net>
> Cc: General discussion list for ACB members and friends where a wide range
> of topics from blindness to politics, issues of the day or whatever comes to
> mind are welcome. This is a free form discussion list.
> <acb-chat@acblists.org>
> Subject: Re: [acb-chat] charges by doctors
>
>
>
> I generally charge $175 per hour but insurance companies pay psychotherapist
> approximately $60 per hour. As for market forces Dash where we to have only
> market forces determining who could receive healthcare – that is one could
> receive care only if one could afford it – we would have many dead people in
> this country. Karen
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> On May 13, 2017, at 9:07 AM, Clifford <clifford@tds.net
> <mailto:clifford@tds.net> > wrote:
>
> Dear Karen:
>
> You did not mention what your normal rate is or was. I
> doubt that you would have many patients if you charged $12000
>
> an hour, or even one third of that amount.
>
> I have always thought that the system we have in the country
> is the reason that the market forces are not in play when it comes to health
> care. So long as the costs are sent to a third party, whether it be an
> insurance company or a government agency, the consumer cares little for the
> total costs, but when that cost comes back as an increase in premiums, then
> we get upset. I have often wondered what we would be doing today if
> insurance had never been invented. If I had to hand my doctor the cash to
> receive services, I am of the opinion that charges would be less.
>
> There is a parallel with regard to taxes. There was an
> employer who once started giving employees cash at the end of the week, but
> the employee then had to walk to three other stations on the way out, where
> each employee had to pay income taxes that were to be withheld, Medicare,
> and finally social security tax. The employees became outraged at how much
> they were having to pay. The I. R. S. stepped in and obtained a court order
> to prevent such practices. It is one thing to see a number on a check stub
> and another when we have to shell out the cash.
>
> In this and many other states, a person who is injured in a
> motor vehicle accident and sues the other driver, the injured party is
> allowed to prove their medical bills on the basis of the total charges by
> the provider, even though the insurance company paying for the medical bills
> paid only a fraction of that amount, and in the case of Medicaid, the
> payment is normally around twenty percent of the posted charges. If the
> injured motorist is successful in obtaining a judgement on that basis, then
> he or she is only required to pay back the Medicaid or insurance company the
> amount actually paid, and the remainder is a nice gift to the claimant and
> their attorney. This does not take in to account the claim for pain and
> suffering etc. I have argued for some time that the successful claimant
> should have to pay the full price of the medical bills they bring to court
> after the fact. The Trial Lawyers get bent out of shape at such suggestions.
>
>
>
>
> Yours Truly,
>
>
>
> Clifford Wilson
>
>
>
> From: Karen Rose [mailto:rosekm@earthlink.net]
> Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2017 2:28 AM
> To: General discussion list for ACB members and friends where a wide range
> of topics from blindness to politics, issues of the day or whatever comes to
> mind are welcome. This is a free form discussion list.
> <acb-chat@acblists.org <mailto:acb-chat@acblists.org> >
> Cc: Clifford <clifford@tds.net <mailto:clifford@tds.net> >
> Subject: Re: [acb-chat] charges by doctors
>
>
>
> Clifford – I am a licensed psychotherapist in practice in Berkeley and San
> Francisco. I accept all major insurances. I have had no razors from those
> companies in the past 34 years. I received approximately 1/3 of my standard
> rate. Karen Rose and MFT
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> On May 12, 2017, at 10:09 PM, Clifford via acb-chat <acb-chat@acblists.org
> <mailto:acb-chat@acblists.org> > wrote:
>
> Dear List Members:
>
> Unfortunately, the reaction I hear to the current proposals
> for healthcare in this country are nothing less than knee-jerk reactions to
> any proposal that comes from this president.
>
> I do recognize some of the problems that we face even before
> President Trump took office. Within the last two years, I was involved in
> the taking of a deposition of a surgeon who spent a total of three hours
> working for his client. His charges for the three hours was $37,000, and
> that did not include any of the support facilities or personnel. In short,
> the doctor received this amount for his services alone. I thought this was
> absurd and asked if this was the normal fee for services of this type in the
> area where he practiced, and the answer was, YES. When I inquired of my
> family doctor as to whether or not such charges, $12,500 an hour was
> reasonable, he was shocked.
>
> While I am not one to support price controls in general, I
> would hope that any new legislation would address such excesses. I am fully
> aware of the time and costs of a medical education and on the job training,
> but charging such fees to patients who are not generally shopping for
> services, but are looking for help, creates an environment where price
> controls may well be instituted. In the Medicare and medic-aid cases, there
> are already regulations as to the amount doctors can charge.
>
> I am glad that this hillbilly is not a member of congress
> and trying to write a new healthcare law. I was and am fundamentally
> opposed to the notion that the federal government should be able to fine
> individuals who fail to buy insurance to cover medical treatment. There are
> folks out there who can neither afford a fine or medical insurance,
> especially with the costs rising as they have under the Obama system.
>
> If California goes the single payer rout, it will be
> interesting to see how that works. Up to this point, the veterans in this
> country have had experience with a single pay system for them. The
> short-falls of that system have made the headlines many more times than one
> would hope for our veterans.
>
> I for one am hopeful that a better system will be enacted,
> and that the compulsive part of the current law is history.
>
>
>
> Yours Truly,
>
>
>
> Clifford Wilson
>
> <image001.jpg>
>
>
>
>
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