Election after election American citizens have shuffled off to the
polls, picking one or the other of the two Political Parties offerings
in our vaunted "Free Choice", carefully regulated election System.
And election after election Americans are greeted with pretty much the
"same old, same old", especially as it effects their daily grind.
During political campaigns promises are a dime a dozen, floating like
butterflies among the television and radio networks, telling voters of
the wonders awaiting them. And following election results? Business
as usual. Old politicians, safe for another span of years, or new
ones settling in, rolling up their sleeves and going about the task of
pleasing their Masters.
And one fine day the People simply got fed up with it all. They
smirked, they held their noses, they closed their eyes and ears, they
said, "What the Hell, it don't matter anyway", and they voted for the
"Jester". Mister Reality TV. Master of deception. skilled
manipulator who turns Fiction into Fact and Fact into Fiction. The
man who stands before his mirror and asks, "Who's the Fairest of them
all?"
And as he enters the second half of his first year in office, he is
creating change, if you call opening the veins of the Working Class
and allowing the dollars to freely flow upward into the coffers of the
bloated rich, change.
And all the while, the Jester moves about the Land seemingly immune to
those laws governing ordinary citizens. The Jester makes the Wizard
of Oz appear to be a Country Bumpkin. And unlike Nero, he is not
fiddling around while he tears down the lofty American Empire. For
that is what is happening. The Billionaire Club, those CEO's of the
giant international corporations, are drooling as they jockey to get
their greedy fingers on everything. American voters have turned the
Jester loose in the Land, and there is no Batman and Robin to save the
nation.
For the first time in our nation's drive to conquer the Land, from sea
to shining sea, for the first time the working class is not needed.
We are as disposable as the many cats and dogs we turn out into our
streets, as useless as the children we spawn and neglect until they,
too run to the streets. We are nothing to the fat corporations, aside
from serving as cannon fodder in the Corporation's Eternal War on
Everybody.
But as history shows, the day of the American Empire is coming to a
close. The People, tricked over and over, have been deceived to the
point that they have no recourse other than to rise up and be done
with their Masters. Why not? When you have watched all of your
efforts to play the game according to the Rules of the Ruling Class,
only to find out that those Rules are theirs, not ours, then we turn
on our self serving, greed driven Wealthy, shouting that we no longer
look to them for solutions to our needs. And we set them aside and
take what we can from their ill gotten wealth. And the cycle starts
all over again. Years from now, if we still exist, folks will wonder
how it was that such a Golden Opportunity was missed. With such power
in numbers, why didn't the Masses set up a new government that really
was a government of the people, instead of allowing a new Ruling Class
to set up housekeeping, and begin the same old process all over.
There are many little components that go into creating conditions for
a mass upheaval. But if there is no plan, no direction, no
understanding of what is happening, then we will simply be set up to
repeat history. Over and over, and over again.
Carl Jarvis
On 8/30/17, Miriam Vieni <`miriamvieni@optonline.net> wrote:
> I suppose that what you should be concerned about is a political system that
> doesn't impeach Trump for crimes that he has clearly committed, (and I've
> seen at least 10 of them clearly listed), and instead, chooses to mislead
> the public with innuendos about Russian interference with his election.
>
> Miriam
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blind-democracy-bounce@freelists.org
> [mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@freelists.org] On Behalf Of Carl Jarvis
> Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2017 12:42 AM
> To: blind-democracy@freelists.org
> Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: More Misleading Russia-gate Propaganda
>
> Let me see, should I be more concerned with the great influence of Putin in
> America's politics? or should I be more concerned with Donald Trump and his
> billionaire Cabinet? Hmm...
>
> Carl Jarvis
>
>
> On 8/29/17, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@optonline.net> wrote:
>> Consortiumnews
>>
>> Independent Investigative Journalism Since 1995
>>
>> More Misleading Russia-gate Propaganda
>>
>> August 29, 2017
>>
>> Exclusive: The U.S. mainstream media is touting a big break in
>> Russia-gate, emails showing an effort by Donald Trump's associates to
>> construct a building in Moscow. But the evidence actually undercuts the
>> "scandal,"
>> reports Robert Parry.
>>
>> By Robert Parry
>>
>> There is an inherent danger of news organizations getting infected by
>> "confirmation bias" when they want something to be true so badly that
>> even if the evidence goes in the opposite direction they twist the
>> revelation to fit their narrative. Such is how The Washington Post,
>> The New York Times and their followers in the mainstream media are
>> reacting to newly released emails that actually show Donald Trump's
>> team having little or no influence in Moscow.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> President Trump discusses his meeting with Russian President Vladimir
>> Putin at G-20 summit in Hamburg, Germany, on July 7, 2017. (Screenshot
>> from
>> Whitehouse.gov)
>>
>> On Tuesday, for instance, the Times published a front-page article
>> designed to advance the Russia-gate narrative, stating: "A business
>> associate of President Trump promised in 2015 to engineer a real
>> estate deal with the aid of the president of Russia, Vladimir V.
>> Putin, that he said would help Mr.
>> Trump win the presidency."
>>
>> Wow, that sounds pretty devastating! The Times is finally tying
>> together the loose and scattered threads of the
>> Russia-influencing-the-U.S.-election
>> story. Here you have a supposed business deal in which Putin was to
>> help Trump both make money and get elected. That is surely how a
>> casual reader or a Russia-gate true believer would read it - and was
>> meant to read it. But the lede is misleading.
>>
>> The reality, as you would find out if you read further into the story,
>> is that the boast from Felix Sater that somehow the construction of a
>> Trump Tower in Moscow would demonstrate Trump's international business
>> prowess and thus help his election was meaningless. What the incident
>> really shows is that the Trump organization had little or no pull in
>> Russia as Putin's government apparently didn't lift a finger to
>> salvage this stillborn building project.
>>
>> But highlighting that reality would not serve the Times' endless
>> promotion of Russia-gate. So, this counter-evidence gets buried deep
>> in the story, after a reprise of the "scandal" and the Times hyping
>> the significance of Sater's emails from 2015 and early 2016. For good
>> measure, the Times includes a brief and dishonest summary of the Ukraine
>> crisis.
>>
>> The Times reported: "Mr. Sater, a Russian immigrant, said he had lined
>> up financing for the Trump Tower deal with VTB Bank, a Russian bank
>> that was under American sanctions for involvement in Moscow's efforts
>> to undermine democracy in Ukraine. In another email, Mr. Sater
>> envisioned a ribbon-cutting ceremony in Moscow. 'I will get Putin on
>> this program and we will get Donald elected,' Mr. Sater wrote."
>>
>> But the idea that Russia acted "to undermine democracy in Ukraine" is
>> another example of the Times' descent into outright propaganda. The
>> reality is that the U.S. government supported - and indeed encouraged
>> - a coup on Feb. 22, 2014, that overthrew the democratically elected
>> Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych even after he offered to move up
>> scheduled elections so he could be voted out of office through a
>> democratic process.
>>
>> After Yanukovych's violent ouster and after the coup regime dispatched
>> military forces to crush resistance among anti-coup, mostly ethnic
>> Russian Ukrainians in the east, Russia provided help to prevent their
>> destruction from an assault spearheaded by neo-Nazis and other extreme
>> Ukrainian nationalists. But that reality would not fit the Times'
>> preferred Ukraine narrative, so it gets summarized as Moscow trying
>> "to undermine democracy in Ukraine."
>>
>> Empty Boasts
>>
>> However, leaving aside the Times' propagandistic approach to Ukraine,
>> there is this more immediate point about Russia-gate: none of Sater's
>> boastful claims proved true and this incident really underscored the
>> lack of useful connections between Trump's people and the Kremlin. One
>> of Trump's lawyers, Michael Cohen, even used a general press email
>> address in a plea for assistance from Putin's personal spokesman.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> The New York Times' connect-the-dots graphic showing the Kremlin
>> sitting atop the White House.
>>
>> Deeper in the story, the Times admits these inconvenient facts: "There
>> is no evidence in the emails that Mr. Sater delivered on his promises,
>> and one email suggests that Mr. Sater overstated his Russian ties. In
>> January 2016, Mr. Cohen wrote to Mr. Putin's spokesman, Dmitri S.
>> Peskov, asking for help restarting the Trump Tower project, which had
>> stalled. But Mr. Sater did not appear to have Mr. Peskov's direct
>> email, and instead wrote to a general inbox for press inquiries."
>>
>> The Times added: "The project never got government permits or
>> financing, and died weeks later. . The emails obtained by The Times
>> make no mention of Russian efforts to damage Hillary Clinton's
>> campaign or the hacking of Democrats' emails."
>>
>> In other words, the Russia-gate narrative - that somehow Putin foresaw
>> Trump's election (although almost no one else did) and sought to curry
>> favor with the future U.S. president by lining Trump's pockets with
>> lucrative real estate deals while doing whatever he could to help
>> Trump win - is knocked down by these new disclosures, not supported by
>> them.
>>
>> Instead of clearing the way for Trump to construct the building and
>> thus - in Sater's view - boost Trump's election chances, Putin and his
>> government wouldn't even approve permits or assist in the financing.
>>
>> And, this failed building project was not the first Trump proposal in
>> Russia to fall apart. A couple of years earlier, a Moscow hotel plan
>> died apparently because Trump would not - or could not - put up
>> adequate financing for his share, overvaluing the magic of the Trump
>> brand. But one would think that if the Kremlin were grooming Trump to
>> be its Manchurian candidate and take over the U.S. government, money
>> would have been no obstacle.
>>
>> Along the same lines, there's the relative pittance that RT paid Gen.
>> Michael Flynn to speak at the TV network's tenth anniversary in Moscow
>> in December 2015. The amount totaled $45,386 with Flynn netting
>> $33,750 after his speakers' bureau took its cut. Democrats and the
>> U.S. mainstream media treated this fact as important evidence of
>> Russia buying influence in the Trump campaign and White House, since
>> Flynn was both a campaign adviser and briefly national security adviser.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Green Party leader Jill Stein and retired Lt. General Michael Flynn
>> attending a dinner marking the RT network's 10-year anniversary in
>> Moscow, December 2015, sitting at the same table as Russian President
>> Vladimir Putin.
>>
>> But the actual evidence suggests something quite different. Besides
>> Flynn's relatively modest speaking fee, it turned out that RT
>> negotiated Flynn's rate downward, a fact that The Washington Post
>> buried deep inside an article on Flynn's Russia-connected payments.
>> The Post wrote, "RT balked at paying Flynn's original asking price.
>> 'Sorry it took us longer to get back to you but the problem is that
>> the speaking fee is a bit too high and exceeds our budget at the
>> moment,' Alina Mikhaleva, RT's head of marketing, wrote a Flynn
>> associate about a month before the event."
>>
>> Yet, if Putin were splurging to induce Americans near Trump to betray
>> their country, it makes no sense that Putin's supposed flunkies at RT
>> would be quibbling with Flynn over a relatively modest speaking fee;
>> they'd be falling over themselves to pay him more.
>>
>> So, what the evidence really indicates is that Putin, like almost
>> everybody else in the world, didn't anticipate Trump's ascendance to
>> the White House, at least not in the time frame of these events - and
>> thus was doing nothing to buy influence with his entourage or boost
>> his election chances by helping him construct a glittering Trump Tower
>> in Moscow.
>>
>> But that recognition of reality would undermine the much beloved story
>> of Putin-Trump collusion, so the key facts and the clear logic are
>> downplayed or ignored - all the better to deceive Americans who are
>> dependent on the Times, the Post and the mainstream media.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Wednesday, August 30, 2017
Tuesday, August 29, 2017
Join us to get this IQ-Lowering Pesticide out of your food!
The links in this article may not work, since I simply copied it and
pasted. But the warning is very clear. We working class Americans
are losing one protection after another. We now know that Trump's
boast that he is "returning America to her Greatness", means he is
taking us back to the Glory Days when Capitalism ruled with little
interference from Government.
Now I'm wondering about his claim to "drain the swamp". Is working
class America the swamp he means? Does Trump and his Merry Band of
Billionaires need us? They now have more and more robots doing the
work we once did, along with the really cheap labor from Third World
countries...like we're becoming.
Carl Jarvis
*******
Don't Let Trump Poison America's children and farmworkers
Join us to get this IQ-Lowering Pesticide out of your food!
Don't let Trump turn the EPA into a Polluter's Paradise – take a stand
today - If this pesticide can lower a child's IQ it has NO Business
being sprayed
on our food! – Every voice counts! >>
Dear Carl,
In a stunning blow to science, democracy and human health, the Trump
administration has overruled the Environmental Protection Agency's
(EPA) own career
scientists and stubbornly refused to ban the toxic pesticide
chlorpyrifos, which has been linked to dangerous impacts on young
children's brains — including
higher rates of ADHD and autism and most shockingly lowered IQs for
children whose mothers are exposed to the pesticide during pregnancy.
The science behind chlorpyrifos damage to young children's brains is
so conclusive that career EPA scientists actually went so far as
recommending the
pesticide be completely BANNED from agricultural use, but Trump's EPA
administrator Scott Pruitt personally reversed this decision.
According to multiple media reports, Pruitt's decision came after a
brief meeting with the CEO of Dow Chemical and an intense push by
agribusiness lobbyists
who advised Trump's political appointees at the EPA to ignore the
multiple health studies that show the pesticide chlorpyrifos can harm
children's brains.
Fortunately, the Senate is now stepping up to protect people and the
planet from this dangerous synthetic pesticide and a handful of
Senators just introduced
a bill that would ban this toxic pesticide for good called the
"Protect Children, Farmers and Farmworkers from Nerve Agent Pesticides
Act of 2017."
Stop the use of this dangerous pesticide from harming America's
children — Tell your Senators to pass Senate Bill 1624 to Protect
Children, Farmers and
Farmworkers from Dangerous Pesticides — Every voice counts!
https://action.fooddemocracynow.org/sign/dont_let_Trump_poison_children_and_Farmerworkers/?t=6&akid=1990%2E526696%2EG9r8HF
Trump and Pruitt Plan to Turn the EPA and America into a Polluter's Paradise.
The pesticide chlorpyrifos, largely manufactured Dow Chemical, is
classified as a neurotoxin by the Center for Disease Control and is a
known endocrine
disruptor that interferes with important developmental human hormones.
Strong scientific evidence shows that it can lower IQs and increase
the risk of
autism in young children. Chlorpyrifos is sprayed on corn and soybeans
in the Midwest and fruit and vegetable crops in the Southeast,
Washington, and California.
Make no doubt about it, Pruitt's decision to unilaterally overrule EPA
career scientists was no accident.
What makes this decision so egregious is that Trump and Pruitt
intentionally chose to put Dow Chemical's polluter profits over the
health and well being
of America's children and farm workers. Pruitt and President Trump
even went so far as ignoring the advice of the American Academy of
Pediatrics, which
represents more than 66,000 pediatricians and pediatric surgeons, who
were "deeply alarmed" by the EPAs decision.
Instead, the Trump administration accepted the corporate talking
points from the CEOs of CropLife America, the Fertilizer Institute,
and the American Soybean
Association, which are all run by the likes of Dow Chemical, DuPont
and Monsanto.
The complicity is so blatant that in February, while signing an
executive order that mandated the rolling back of government
regulations, Trump handed
the pen he used to Dow Chemical's CEO Andrew Liveris, who stood next
to him during the ceremony.
It should come as no surprise that Dow Chemical famously wrote a $1
million check to help underwrite Trump's inauguration, after which
Trump named Dow
Chemical's CEO to head his now disbanded "American Manufacturing Council".
In an effort to combat this blatant collusion with the pesticide
industry, Senator Tom Udall (New Mexico) has introduced a new bill in
the Senate, known
as Senate Bill 1624 or the Protect Children, Farmers and Farmworkers
from Nerve Agent Pesticides Act of 2017, and they need our help to
protect America's
children and farm workers.
Don't let Trump turn the EPA into a Polluter's Paradise – take a stand
today to help ban this dangerous brain-damaging pesticide. If this
pesticide can
lower a child's IQ it has NO Business being sprayed on our food! –
Every voice counts!
http://action.fooddemocracynow.org/sign/dont_let_Trump_poison_children_and_Farmerworkers/?t=9&akid=1990%2E526696%2EG9r8HF
It's time to take a stand for America's children, farmer workers and
the environment! Trump and his corporate cronies have already signaled
their plans
to roll back landmark environmental and human health protections by
gutting clean water rules, limiting the endangered species act and
carving up and selling
off national public parks to corporate polluters. We can't let them
get away with this.
Take action today to put an end to the corruption of our democracy and
the poisoning of our food and environment!
Remember, democracy is like muscle, if you don't use it you lose it.
Thanks for participating in food democracy,
Dave Murphy
Founder / Executive Director
Food Democracy Now!
Sources:
1. "EPA chief met with Dow Chemical CEO before deciding not to ban
toxic pesticide", Los Angeles Times, June 30, 2017.
http://action.fooddemocracynow.org/go/2113?t=12&akid=1990%2E526696%2EG9r8HF
2. "That EPA push to ban a pesticide that harms babies' brains?
Dropped after Trump EPA chief Pruitt met with Dow CEO", BoingBoing,
June 28, 2017.
https://action.fooddemocracynow.org/go/2114?t=14&akid=1990%2E526696%2EG9r8HF
3. "Blythe Danner: How Scott Pruitt Is Putting Our Kids and
Grandchildren in Danger", Time, Aug 15, 2017.
http://action.fooddemocracynow.org/go/2115?t=16&akid=1990%2E526696%2EG9r8HF
4. "
EPA Welcomed Industry Feedback Before Reversing Pesticide Ban,
Ignoring Health Concerns
", The Intercept, August 18, 2017.
https://action.fooddemocracynow.org/go/2116?t=19&akid=1990%2E526696%2EG9r8HF
5. "UPDATED: Trump's EPA Just Greenlighted a Pesticide Known to Damage
Kids' Brains", Mother Jones, March 27, 2017.
http://action.fooddemocracynow.org/go/2117?t=21&akid=1990%2E526696%2EG9r8HF
6. "Trump's EPA Greenlit This Pesticide Linked to Brain Damage. Eight
Senators Are Fighting Back.", Mother Jones, July 26, 2017.
http://action.fooddemocracynow.org/go/2118?t=23&akid=1990%2E526696%2EG9r8HF
7. "UPDATE 1-U.S. senators seek ban on pesticide chlorpyrifos"
Reuters, July 25, 2017.
https://action.fooddemocracynow.org/go/2121?t=25&akid=1990%2E526696%2EG9r8HF
8. "S.1624 - Protect Children, Farmers, and Farmworkers from Nerve
Agent Pesticides Act of 2017", Congress dot Gov, 115th Congress, July
25, 2017.
https://action.fooddemocracynow.org/go/2122?t=27&akid=1990%2E526696%2EG9r8HF
You can unsubscribe from this mailing list at any time.
Quick Reply
To: Food Democracy Now! Team <info@fooddemocracynow.org>
More Reply Options
pasted. But the warning is very clear. We working class Americans
are losing one protection after another. We now know that Trump's
boast that he is "returning America to her Greatness", means he is
taking us back to the Glory Days when Capitalism ruled with little
interference from Government.
Now I'm wondering about his claim to "drain the swamp". Is working
class America the swamp he means? Does Trump and his Merry Band of
Billionaires need us? They now have more and more robots doing the
work we once did, along with the really cheap labor from Third World
countries...like we're becoming.
Carl Jarvis
*******
Don't Let Trump Poison America's children and farmworkers
Join us to get this IQ-Lowering Pesticide out of your food!
Don't let Trump turn the EPA into a Polluter's Paradise – take a stand
today - If this pesticide can lower a child's IQ it has NO Business
being sprayed
on our food! – Every voice counts! >>
Dear Carl,
In a stunning blow to science, democracy and human health, the Trump
administration has overruled the Environmental Protection Agency's
(EPA) own career
scientists and stubbornly refused to ban the toxic pesticide
chlorpyrifos, which has been linked to dangerous impacts on young
children's brains — including
higher rates of ADHD and autism and most shockingly lowered IQs for
children whose mothers are exposed to the pesticide during pregnancy.
The science behind chlorpyrifos damage to young children's brains is
so conclusive that career EPA scientists actually went so far as
recommending the
pesticide be completely BANNED from agricultural use, but Trump's EPA
administrator Scott Pruitt personally reversed this decision.
According to multiple media reports, Pruitt's decision came after a
brief meeting with the CEO of Dow Chemical and an intense push by
agribusiness lobbyists
who advised Trump's political appointees at the EPA to ignore the
multiple health studies that show the pesticide chlorpyrifos can harm
children's brains.
Fortunately, the Senate is now stepping up to protect people and the
planet from this dangerous synthetic pesticide and a handful of
Senators just introduced
a bill that would ban this toxic pesticide for good called the
"Protect Children, Farmers and Farmworkers from Nerve Agent Pesticides
Act of 2017."
Stop the use of this dangerous pesticide from harming America's
children — Tell your Senators to pass Senate Bill 1624 to Protect
Children, Farmers and
Farmworkers from Dangerous Pesticides — Every voice counts!
https://action.fooddemocracynow.org/sign/dont_let_Trump_poison_children_and_Farmerworkers/?t=6&akid=1990%2E526696%2EG9r8HF
Trump and Pruitt Plan to Turn the EPA and America into a Polluter's Paradise.
The pesticide chlorpyrifos, largely manufactured Dow Chemical, is
classified as a neurotoxin by the Center for Disease Control and is a
known endocrine
disruptor that interferes with important developmental human hormones.
Strong scientific evidence shows that it can lower IQs and increase
the risk of
autism in young children. Chlorpyrifos is sprayed on corn and soybeans
in the Midwest and fruit and vegetable crops in the Southeast,
Washington, and California.
Make no doubt about it, Pruitt's decision to unilaterally overrule EPA
career scientists was no accident.
What makes this decision so egregious is that Trump and Pruitt
intentionally chose to put Dow Chemical's polluter profits over the
health and well being
of America's children and farm workers. Pruitt and President Trump
even went so far as ignoring the advice of the American Academy of
Pediatrics, which
represents more than 66,000 pediatricians and pediatric surgeons, who
were "deeply alarmed" by the EPAs decision.
Instead, the Trump administration accepted the corporate talking
points from the CEOs of CropLife America, the Fertilizer Institute,
and the American Soybean
Association, which are all run by the likes of Dow Chemical, DuPont
and Monsanto.
The complicity is so blatant that in February, while signing an
executive order that mandated the rolling back of government
regulations, Trump handed
the pen he used to Dow Chemical's CEO Andrew Liveris, who stood next
to him during the ceremony.
It should come as no surprise that Dow Chemical famously wrote a $1
million check to help underwrite Trump's inauguration, after which
Trump named Dow
Chemical's CEO to head his now disbanded "American Manufacturing Council".
In an effort to combat this blatant collusion with the pesticide
industry, Senator Tom Udall (New Mexico) has introduced a new bill in
the Senate, known
as Senate Bill 1624 or the Protect Children, Farmers and Farmworkers
from Nerve Agent Pesticides Act of 2017, and they need our help to
protect America's
children and farm workers.
Don't let Trump turn the EPA into a Polluter's Paradise – take a stand
today to help ban this dangerous brain-damaging pesticide. If this
pesticide can
lower a child's IQ it has NO Business being sprayed on our food! –
Every voice counts!
http://action.fooddemocracynow.org/sign/dont_let_Trump_poison_children_and_Farmerworkers/?t=9&akid=1990%2E526696%2EG9r8HF
It's time to take a stand for America's children, farmer workers and
the environment! Trump and his corporate cronies have already signaled
their plans
to roll back landmark environmental and human health protections by
gutting clean water rules, limiting the endangered species act and
carving up and selling
off national public parks to corporate polluters. We can't let them
get away with this.
Take action today to put an end to the corruption of our democracy and
the poisoning of our food and environment!
Remember, democracy is like muscle, if you don't use it you lose it.
Thanks for participating in food democracy,
Dave Murphy
Founder / Executive Director
Food Democracy Now!
Sources:
1. "EPA chief met with Dow Chemical CEO before deciding not to ban
toxic pesticide", Los Angeles Times, June 30, 2017.
http://action.fooddemocracynow.org/go/2113?t=12&akid=1990%2E526696%2EG9r8HF
2. "That EPA push to ban a pesticide that harms babies' brains?
Dropped after Trump EPA chief Pruitt met with Dow CEO", BoingBoing,
June 28, 2017.
https://action.fooddemocracynow.org/go/2114?t=14&akid=1990%2E526696%2EG9r8HF
3. "Blythe Danner: How Scott Pruitt Is Putting Our Kids and
Grandchildren in Danger", Time, Aug 15, 2017.
http://action.fooddemocracynow.org/go/2115?t=16&akid=1990%2E526696%2EG9r8HF
4. "
EPA Welcomed Industry Feedback Before Reversing Pesticide Ban,
Ignoring Health Concerns
", The Intercept, August 18, 2017.
https://action.fooddemocracynow.org/go/2116?t=19&akid=1990%2E526696%2EG9r8HF
5. "UPDATED: Trump's EPA Just Greenlighted a Pesticide Known to Damage
Kids' Brains", Mother Jones, March 27, 2017.
http://action.fooddemocracynow.org/go/2117?t=21&akid=1990%2E526696%2EG9r8HF
6. "Trump's EPA Greenlit This Pesticide Linked to Brain Damage. Eight
Senators Are Fighting Back.", Mother Jones, July 26, 2017.
http://action.fooddemocracynow.org/go/2118?t=23&akid=1990%2E526696%2EG9r8HF
7. "UPDATE 1-U.S. senators seek ban on pesticide chlorpyrifos"
Reuters, July 25, 2017.
https://action.fooddemocracynow.org/go/2121?t=25&akid=1990%2E526696%2EG9r8HF
8. "S.1624 - Protect Children, Farmers, and Farmworkers from Nerve
Agent Pesticides Act of 2017", Congress dot Gov, 115th Congress, July
25, 2017.
https://action.fooddemocracynow.org/go/2122?t=27&akid=1990%2E526696%2EG9r8HF
You can unsubscribe from this mailing list at any time.
Quick Reply
To: Food Democracy Now! Team <info@fooddemocracynow.org>
More Reply Options
Re: [acb-chat] Types of Pardons was RE: sheriff Joe
and all lovers of Law and Order, everywhere.
Lovers, at least if you can write the laws and disregard them when you please.
This "pardon" of former sheriff Joe Arpaio should be taken seriously.
First, if you want the president to watch your back, you might want to
take out huge ads praising him and calling him "God Like".
Secondly, An important lesson is taught us by president Donald Trump.
The biggest bully on the block gets to make the rules, and to break
them when it pleases him.
And thirdly, and most important, the laws which we working class
citizens are expected to obey faithfully, are laws developed by what I
have called the American Oligarchy. What other names would you
prefer? These laws began when a bunch of White Men who were Land
Owners or very Wealthy, over the age of 21, gathered together and
decided that they did not like playing nice with King George any
longer. The Laws they drew up assured that if they won their freedom
from England, they would be protected, legally. These new laws did
not originally include Women, Slaves, Indians, Indentured Servants,
Drifters, People with no personal holdings, or Children under 21 years
of age. In other words, these new laws, called the Constitution, did
not include most of the Colonists.
These People, the Working Class who took up muskets and fought the war
for the Land Owners, had no voice in making up the rules. But they
did get to live by them, to obey them, and to suffer the consequences
if they violated them. Donald Trump is merely setting about, "Making
America Great Again!" He is doing this by deciding which laws to
obey, and which ones get in the way of "Making America Great Again".
I hasten to say that many of the laws we live under are good and fair
laws, including our Constitution and especially the Bill of
Rights...those wonderful amendments that do open the doors which allow
most of us some participation in the nation's affairs. But it is
limited, for example, our involvement in World Affairs. The Working
Class does not get to decide international Policies, since such
complex matters are assumed to be far beyond the abilities of us
simple minded folk. And we don't get to decide who should be pardoned
for breaking the Law, and who must serve out their time, or who should
be hunted down and jailed for breaking the same laws as those who are
among the privileged who are forgiven.
But all of that aside. Have any of you attempted to go to court and
present your case before a jury of your peers, or before a Judge?
Our attempt to resolve the matter of our neighbor's beaver pond
expanding into our horse pasture, cost us $6,000 before we ever went
before a Judge or a Jury of our Peers. We weighed the possibilities.
The laws here in Washington State are so vague, in regards to Beaver
dams, that we could as easily lose as win. If we lost, not only
would the Beavers happily continue blocking the creek and flooding our
land, but we would need to take out a loan to pay court costs, our
attorney and Heaven knows what else. My point is that we citizens do
have the right under the Law to present our case...if we can afford to
do so. But for a large portion of our People, looking to the Law for
help is only theoretical, not a reality.
As for why Ford lost his bid for the presidency? I think it was he
who lost, not his pardoning of Nixon. Jimmy Carter came on the
national scene with a fresh, almost boyish appearance. I remember TV
ads where Carter would appear, nodding and smiling, saying, "I'm Jimmy
Carter, and I'm running for president". Gerald Ford came on looking
like a stump next to a flowering cherry tree.
Carl Jarvis
On 8/29/17, Bob Hachey via acb-chat <acb-chat@acblists.org> wrote:
> Hi all,
> There is sure something unusual about Sheriff Joe's pardon. Most partodns
> are done after the law has taken its course and sentence handed down. The
> only other pardon that was done this way that I'm familiar with was that of
> former President Nixon. Ford probably lost the election of 1976 because of
> that pardon. But, given that we neded to move on past the Watergate crisis,
> it was probably the right thing to do. Seems to me that this pardon lacks
> that same redeeming quality.
> Bob Hachey
>
> _______________________________________________
> acb-chat mailing list
> acb-chat@acblists.org
> http://www.acblists.org/mailman/listinfo/acb-chat
>
Lovers, at least if you can write the laws and disregard them when you please.
This "pardon" of former sheriff Joe Arpaio should be taken seriously.
First, if you want the president to watch your back, you might want to
take out huge ads praising him and calling him "God Like".
Secondly, An important lesson is taught us by president Donald Trump.
The biggest bully on the block gets to make the rules, and to break
them when it pleases him.
And thirdly, and most important, the laws which we working class
citizens are expected to obey faithfully, are laws developed by what I
have called the American Oligarchy. What other names would you
prefer? These laws began when a bunch of White Men who were Land
Owners or very Wealthy, over the age of 21, gathered together and
decided that they did not like playing nice with King George any
longer. The Laws they drew up assured that if they won their freedom
from England, they would be protected, legally. These new laws did
not originally include Women, Slaves, Indians, Indentured Servants,
Drifters, People with no personal holdings, or Children under 21 years
of age. In other words, these new laws, called the Constitution, did
not include most of the Colonists.
These People, the Working Class who took up muskets and fought the war
for the Land Owners, had no voice in making up the rules. But they
did get to live by them, to obey them, and to suffer the consequences
if they violated them. Donald Trump is merely setting about, "Making
America Great Again!" He is doing this by deciding which laws to
obey, and which ones get in the way of "Making America Great Again".
I hasten to say that many of the laws we live under are good and fair
laws, including our Constitution and especially the Bill of
Rights...those wonderful amendments that do open the doors which allow
most of us some participation in the nation's affairs. But it is
limited, for example, our involvement in World Affairs. The Working
Class does not get to decide international Policies, since such
complex matters are assumed to be far beyond the abilities of us
simple minded folk. And we don't get to decide who should be pardoned
for breaking the Law, and who must serve out their time, or who should
be hunted down and jailed for breaking the same laws as those who are
among the privileged who are forgiven.
But all of that aside. Have any of you attempted to go to court and
present your case before a jury of your peers, or before a Judge?
Our attempt to resolve the matter of our neighbor's beaver pond
expanding into our horse pasture, cost us $6,000 before we ever went
before a Judge or a Jury of our Peers. We weighed the possibilities.
The laws here in Washington State are so vague, in regards to Beaver
dams, that we could as easily lose as win. If we lost, not only
would the Beavers happily continue blocking the creek and flooding our
land, but we would need to take out a loan to pay court costs, our
attorney and Heaven knows what else. My point is that we citizens do
have the right under the Law to present our case...if we can afford to
do so. But for a large portion of our People, looking to the Law for
help is only theoretical, not a reality.
As for why Ford lost his bid for the presidency? I think it was he
who lost, not his pardoning of Nixon. Jimmy Carter came on the
national scene with a fresh, almost boyish appearance. I remember TV
ads where Carter would appear, nodding and smiling, saying, "I'm Jimmy
Carter, and I'm running for president". Gerald Ford came on looking
like a stump next to a flowering cherry tree.
Carl Jarvis
On 8/29/17, Bob Hachey via acb-chat <acb-chat@acblists.org> wrote:
> Hi all,
> There is sure something unusual about Sheriff Joe's pardon. Most partodns
> are done after the law has taken its course and sentence handed down. The
> only other pardon that was done this way that I'm familiar with was that of
> former President Nixon. Ford probably lost the election of 1976 because of
> that pardon. But, given that we neded to move on past the Watergate crisis,
> it was probably the right thing to do. Seems to me that this pardon lacks
> that same redeeming quality.
> Bob Hachey
>
> _______________________________________________
> acb-chat mailing list
> acb-chat@acblists.org
> http://www.acblists.org/mailman/listinfo/acb-chat
>
Saturday, August 26, 2017
Re: [blind-democracy] Re: Apria
Hi Frank,
I would suggest that Joe Arpaio has been elevated by Donald Trump, to
the level of that statue of General Robert E. Lee.
Both represent a way of Life in America. General Lee was defeated on
the battlefield, at the cost of thousands of lives.
Joe Arpaio was defeated at the polls with the cost of an unknown
number of Brown lives suffered during his long reign as Sheriff.
Both men are losers. But both are admired as heroes by their followers.
Because of this admiration, Heroes, especially heroes who are lifted
to the point of being bigger than life, can inspire people. Those
followers/worshipers of Lee and Arpaio are convicted of their belief
that the "White Race" is superior to all other "Races". Allowing Lee
and Arpaio to stand unchallenged is to give the impression that what
they represent is acceptable. And that offends me!
Carl Jarvis
On 8/26/17, Frank Ventura <frank.ventura@littlebreezes.com> wrote:
> His hatred is not just of foreigners but of anyone who is darker than he is
> and as someone else said the problem is racism not immigration. This year
> when I was traveling back from the ACB conference I was in a group of 4
> people heading to the same flight. I was the only one with dark skin. The
> other three (including my wife) just walked through security. However when I
> gave the TSA agent my passport and he looked it over and noticed the
> birthplace said New York (as is correct) he put his hand out in front of me
> as to infer "you aint traveling in my country" and said sarcastically "you
> weren't born in New York" as if I faked that and I was actually born in some
> far off land.
> Frank
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blind-democracy-bounce@freelists.org
> [mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@freelists.org] On Behalf Of Bonnie L.
> Sherrell
> Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2017 1:59 AM
> To: blind-democracy@freelists.org
> Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Arpaio
>
> Good to hear from you, Kevin--it's been years!
>
> Oh, yes, let's pardon someone else who hates them foreigners as much as
> Trump himself does. Gads, he makes me crazy!
> Bonnie L. Sherrell
> Teacher at Large
>
> "Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very
> wise cannot see all ends." LOTR
>
> "Don't go where I can't follow."
>
> We gave the Goblin King control of our nation!
>
>
>
>
>
I would suggest that Joe Arpaio has been elevated by Donald Trump, to
the level of that statue of General Robert E. Lee.
Both represent a way of Life in America. General Lee was defeated on
the battlefield, at the cost of thousands of lives.
Joe Arpaio was defeated at the polls with the cost of an unknown
number of Brown lives suffered during his long reign as Sheriff.
Both men are losers. But both are admired as heroes by their followers.
Because of this admiration, Heroes, especially heroes who are lifted
to the point of being bigger than life, can inspire people. Those
followers/worshipers of Lee and Arpaio are convicted of their belief
that the "White Race" is superior to all other "Races". Allowing Lee
and Arpaio to stand unchallenged is to give the impression that what
they represent is acceptable. And that offends me!
Carl Jarvis
On 8/26/17, Frank Ventura <frank.ventura@littlebreezes.com> wrote:
> His hatred is not just of foreigners but of anyone who is darker than he is
> and as someone else said the problem is racism not immigration. This year
> when I was traveling back from the ACB conference I was in a group of 4
> people heading to the same flight. I was the only one with dark skin. The
> other three (including my wife) just walked through security. However when I
> gave the TSA agent my passport and he looked it over and noticed the
> birthplace said New York (as is correct) he put his hand out in front of me
> as to infer "you aint traveling in my country" and said sarcastically "you
> weren't born in New York" as if I faked that and I was actually born in some
> far off land.
> Frank
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blind-democracy-bounce@freelists.org
> [mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@freelists.org] On Behalf Of Bonnie L.
> Sherrell
> Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2017 1:59 AM
> To: blind-democracy@freelists.org
> Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Arpaio
>
> Good to hear from you, Kevin--it's been years!
>
> Oh, yes, let's pardon someone else who hates them foreigners as much as
> Trump himself does. Gads, he makes me crazy!
> Bonnie L. Sherrell
> Teacher at Large
>
> "Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very
> wise cannot see all ends." LOTR
>
> "Don't go where I can't follow."
>
> We gave the Goblin King control of our nation!
>
>
>
>
>
Thursday, August 17, 2017
Norm Stamper and Donald Trump
One of the reasons I was pleased to hear Seattle's retired police
chief Norm Stamper on Flashpoint yesterday(Wednesday), expressing his
current views, was for exactly that reason. Stamper proves that
intelligent, thoughtful people do have the ability to learn from Life.
I sure respect the former Chief more than I do someone like the almost
Saint Billie Graham. Now don't get the wrong idea, I do not
disrespect Billie Graham. But I recall hearing him say something
about the fact that once he also had questions about the authenticity
of the Bible. He said he went onto the beach and knelt in the sand
before the open Bible. He kissed the pages and said that he would
accept every word as God's Truth. He told us that he has never had a
doubt, since that day.
Which brings to mind another block of marble, the "brain" of Donald
Trump. This man has been locked in a Time Warp. A warp that existed
long before Trump was born. 1850. Those were the "good years"...if
you were White, male, a land owner or possessing great wealth. Those
were the days when Men were Men, swaggering down their streets,
shoving "Coloreds", old women and nasty little urchins aside, while
winking at the comely young maidens.
Hey! Donald! Wake up and smell the Internet. Times have changed.
There are no more Windmills for you to joust. King Arthur's Round
Table was hauled off to the London Dump after the Knights took jobs as
Lobbyists in Washington D.C. And the Queen of Hearts ran away with
Little Black Sambo. Times, Donald, have changed...may I call you
Donald? Times no longer are all White.
And by the way, where do you want us to put all these old statues your
White Racists are busy defending, on your fancy ass golf course at
Trump Tower? Ah yes, the Trump Tower! It is so lonely at the top.
Donald Trump, Donald Trump, let down your hair. Maybe some wandering,
hansom prince will clamber up and kiss you and you will turn into an
ugly frog...maybe...here's hopping!
Carl Jarvis
chief Norm Stamper on Flashpoint yesterday(Wednesday), expressing his
current views, was for exactly that reason. Stamper proves that
intelligent, thoughtful people do have the ability to learn from Life.
I sure respect the former Chief more than I do someone like the almost
Saint Billie Graham. Now don't get the wrong idea, I do not
disrespect Billie Graham. But I recall hearing him say something
about the fact that once he also had questions about the authenticity
of the Bible. He said he went onto the beach and knelt in the sand
before the open Bible. He kissed the pages and said that he would
accept every word as God's Truth. He told us that he has never had a
doubt, since that day.
Which brings to mind another block of marble, the "brain" of Donald
Trump. This man has been locked in a Time Warp. A warp that existed
long before Trump was born. 1850. Those were the "good years"...if
you were White, male, a land owner or possessing great wealth. Those
were the days when Men were Men, swaggering down their streets,
shoving "Coloreds", old women and nasty little urchins aside, while
winking at the comely young maidens.
Hey! Donald! Wake up and smell the Internet. Times have changed.
There are no more Windmills for you to joust. King Arthur's Round
Table was hauled off to the London Dump after the Knights took jobs as
Lobbyists in Washington D.C. And the Queen of Hearts ran away with
Little Black Sambo. Times, Donald, have changed...may I call you
Donald? Times no longer are all White.
And by the way, where do you want us to put all these old statues your
White Racists are busy defending, on your fancy ass golf course at
Trump Tower? Ah yes, the Trump Tower! It is so lonely at the top.
Donald Trump, Donald Trump, let down your hair. Maybe some wandering,
hansom prince will clamber up and kiss you and you will turn into an
ugly frog...maybe...here's hopping!
Carl Jarvis
Monday, August 14, 2017
Re: [blind-democracy] Re: Sunday
Actually, it's a coffee cup...with a saucer.
I suspect that Roger is not going to reach Bob, anymore than I will.
But I do enjoy Roger's rational explanations. We Humans are just
smart enough to be deadly dangerous. Whether we have the IQ of a
genius, like Einstein, or somewhere below an IQ of 90, like Donald
Trump, we are nowhere informed enough to begin to understand this
vastness we call "the Universe". Whether it is the current Pope, whom
I personally think is well above the average IQ, or Donald Trump, whom
I find to be cunning but immature, we see all sorts of wild beliefs.
Very bright people believe that God is a real Force. Idiots also
believe that God guides their lives. So do insane people, driven to
murder in the name of the Lord, God Almighty, or Allah, or some voice
that speaks to them from the radio or the TV, instructing them to
strike out. Each one is convinced that what they believe is the real
world.
But it's all hogwash. Unless we can demonstrate our belief, it is no
more valid than all the others. Just saying that God or Allah are
real is no different than saying that Alice saw a White Rabbit in a
vest and a top hat looking at a pocket watch as he hopped down a large
rabbit hole.
When Human Beings finally come to our senses and agree that we simply
do not have enough information to understand what is around us, then
perhaps we can get down to the business of expanding our information.
In the meantime, I guess many of us will prefer to wrap themselves up
in their Fairy Tales and be happy as they condemn everyone else for
their Fairy Tales. And that is why we will continue to live in a
state of Eternal War.
Carl Jarvis
PS. If you disagree with My Reality, just wait 25 years and let me
know the last time Peace broke out across the Planet. I'll be 107
that year.
CJ
On 8/13/17, Roger Loran Bailey <dmarc-noreply@freelists.org> wrote:
> Okay, I'll give you a rational answer. The problem with allah doing what
> you point to is that allah is not omnipotent. Allah is only a fairy tale
> character. What makes this rational is that to believe in the reality of
> fairy tale characters is irrational. Now, speaking of rationality and
> logic, I have been meaning to respond to an earlier message from you. At
> the time I had concentrated on another part of your message and did not
> get around to this part of it. You said that the existence of a deity is
> logical because everything that exists must have a creator. Let's stop a
> moment to look at what logic is. Logic is an information processing
> algorithm. One takes two or more pieces of information and process them
> with logic and one gets another piece of information that had not been
> there before. With that in mind let's look at the syllogism you were
> implying. Everything that exists must have a creator. The universe
> exists. Therefor the universe has a creator. That is the simplest of
> syllogisms in formal logic. It is flawlessly logical. However, the
> logical algorithm works just as well with false information as it does
> with correct information. I strongly suspect that your first premise is
> false information. That is the premise that everything that exists must
> have a creator. How do you know that is true? I suppose that you might
> come up with another syllogism to arrive at that premise, but then I
> would have to question the premises in the second syllogism. Ultimately,
> no matter how logical your argument it is necessary to provide some
> evidence for the premises. So how do you know that everything that
> exists must have a creator. Please provide an answer that has something
> to do with it being true. If you cannot come up with a reason to believe
> it then your claim has as much validity as the claim that a paisley
> unicorn is orbiting Jupiter in a tea cup.
>
>
> On 8/13/2017 12:58 AM, Bob wrote:
>> Hello, on each Sunday morning, fellow Congregationalists gather to
>> worship. In the Koran, there is a chapter called chapter of Mary. It
>> is numbered the nineteenthin a typical Koranic index. At its
>> inception, allah mentions when prophet Zechariah peace be upon him
>> desperately implored to his Lord in seclusion. He said, my Lord, my
>> bones have become feeble and my head has flamed with grey hair, and my
>> Lord, I have been never disappointed with my prayer to you. And, I
>> have been frightened with the dependants after me and my spouse has
>> been barren, so grant me with you a grace an heir. Shall he inherit me
>> and inherit from the house of Jacob, and make him my Lord pleasing. Oh
>> Zechariah, we give you the glad tidings of a boy named John, a name We
>> have never been given before. He said, my Lord, how can I have a son,
>> when my spouse is barren, and I have become decrepit with old age. He
>> said, It will be so, your Lord says, it is easy for me, and I created
>> you before, when you were nothing. He said, my Lord, give me a sign,
>> he said, your sign that you shall not speak to people for three nights
>> consecutively. And he came out to his people from the sanctuary and
>> signaled to them, glorify in the morning and evening. Oh John, hold
>> the scripture firmly and We gave him wisdom in his youth. And
>> tenderness from Us, and innocence. He was devout. And he was dutiful
>> to his parents, and he was not disobedient, tyrant. And peace be upon
>> him the day he was born, the day he dies and the day he is raised
>> alive. And mention in the Scripture Mary, when she withdrew from her
>> people to an eastern place. She screened herself away from them, and
>> We sent to her Our spirit, and He appeared to her as an immaculate
>> human. She said, I take refuge from you to the Most Merciful, should
>> you be righteous. He said, I am only the messenger of your Lord, to
>> give you the gift of a pure son. She said, how can I have a son when
>> no man has touched me and I was never unchaste. He said, thus said
>> your Lord, It is easy for Me, and We will make him a sign for
>> humanity, and a mercy from Us. The matter was predetermined. So she
>> carried him, and secluded herself with him in a remote place.
>> Laborpains came upon her by the trunk of a palmtree. She said, I wish
>> I had died before this and been completely forgotten. Whereupon he
>> called her from beneath her, shall not you grieve, your Lord has
>> placed a stream beneath you. And shake the trunk of the palmtree
>> towards you and it will drop on you edible dates. So eat,drinkand be
>> consoled. If you see any human, say, I have vowed a fast to the Most
>> Gracious, so I will not speak to any human today. Then she came to her
>> people carrying him, they said, oh Mary, you truly have done something
>> terrible. Oh sister of Aaron, your father was not wicked nor your
>> mother was unchaste. So she pointed to him, they said, how can we
>> speak to an infant in the crib. He said, I indeed am the servant of
>> Allah, He has given me the scripture and made me a prophet. And has
>> made me blessed wherever I may be, and has enjoined on me prayer and
>> charity, so long as I live. And deutiful to my mother, and hasn't made
>> me disobedient, rebel. So Peace is upon me the day I was born, and the
>> day I die, and the Day I get resurrected alive. This is indeed Jesus
>> son of Mary, the sentiment of truth upon which they tend to dispute.
>> Truly, Allah is my and your Lord, so worship Him. This is basically
>> the straight path. The Koran then says, and factions have dissented
>> from among them, so woe to those who disbelieved from the scene of a
>> great day. Each and every denomination has its rendition of who Jesus
>> was. However, Islam presents to the sincere seeker a plain portrait of
>> his genuine account. I am not destined to relentlessly argue. Each and
>> every individual is perfectly autonomous. I am not urging the provoke
>> of a uselessly theological debate. I am just presenting, without
>> stereotypic notion, the Islamic version of the Nativity tale. There
>> are major factors to consider. First, the Islamic story demonstrates
>> in clear terms, Allah's illimitable measurelessly Omnipotence. Second,
>> it enormously honours both Zechariah and John whom Christians call the
>> Baptist as equally, notable prophets. Third, it plainly honours Mary
>> and it righteously recognises her unparalleled celibacy. Fourth, it
>> recognises the Nativity tale while scrupulously maintaining plain
>> monotheism, exalting the divine from bearing a son. Fifth and
>> ultimately, it emphatically exonerates virtuous Mary from the
>> intolerable allegation Jews wrongfully impeached her with. I urge the
>> recipient of this post to carefully ponder, I do not urge you to
>> hasten. I am a caller to Islam. I at the end, want to ask you one
>> simple question. This question demands a clear and a straightforward
>> answer. If Allah is providentially Omnipotent, what is the problem
>> with Him procreating offspring from a decrepitly aged man and a barren
>> woman? Similarly, if Allah's Omnipotence is measureless,what is the
>> problem with Him procreating offspring from a virgin, and without any
>> masculine intervention? I believe that this question is rationally
>> valid and it therefore demands a logical answer. I again, do not
>> hasten anyone to instantly respond. I just am urging you to think
>> properly. Here is Bob greeting you, peace, blessings and much respect
>> from me.
>>
>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient&utm_term=icon>
>>
>> Virus-free. www.avast.com
>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient&utm_term=link>
>>
>>
>>
>> <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>
>
I suspect that Roger is not going to reach Bob, anymore than I will.
But I do enjoy Roger's rational explanations. We Humans are just
smart enough to be deadly dangerous. Whether we have the IQ of a
genius, like Einstein, or somewhere below an IQ of 90, like Donald
Trump, we are nowhere informed enough to begin to understand this
vastness we call "the Universe". Whether it is the current Pope, whom
I personally think is well above the average IQ, or Donald Trump, whom
I find to be cunning but immature, we see all sorts of wild beliefs.
Very bright people believe that God is a real Force. Idiots also
believe that God guides their lives. So do insane people, driven to
murder in the name of the Lord, God Almighty, or Allah, or some voice
that speaks to them from the radio or the TV, instructing them to
strike out. Each one is convinced that what they believe is the real
world.
But it's all hogwash. Unless we can demonstrate our belief, it is no
more valid than all the others. Just saying that God or Allah are
real is no different than saying that Alice saw a White Rabbit in a
vest and a top hat looking at a pocket watch as he hopped down a large
rabbit hole.
When Human Beings finally come to our senses and agree that we simply
do not have enough information to understand what is around us, then
perhaps we can get down to the business of expanding our information.
In the meantime, I guess many of us will prefer to wrap themselves up
in their Fairy Tales and be happy as they condemn everyone else for
their Fairy Tales. And that is why we will continue to live in a
state of Eternal War.
Carl Jarvis
PS. If you disagree with My Reality, just wait 25 years and let me
know the last time Peace broke out across the Planet. I'll be 107
that year.
CJ
On 8/13/17, Roger Loran Bailey <dmarc-noreply@freelists.org> wrote:
> Okay, I'll give you a rational answer. The problem with allah doing what
> you point to is that allah is not omnipotent. Allah is only a fairy tale
> character. What makes this rational is that to believe in the reality of
> fairy tale characters is irrational. Now, speaking of rationality and
> logic, I have been meaning to respond to an earlier message from you. At
> the time I had concentrated on another part of your message and did not
> get around to this part of it. You said that the existence of a deity is
> logical because everything that exists must have a creator. Let's stop a
> moment to look at what logic is. Logic is an information processing
> algorithm. One takes two or more pieces of information and process them
> with logic and one gets another piece of information that had not been
> there before. With that in mind let's look at the syllogism you were
> implying. Everything that exists must have a creator. The universe
> exists. Therefor the universe has a creator. That is the simplest of
> syllogisms in formal logic. It is flawlessly logical. However, the
> logical algorithm works just as well with false information as it does
> with correct information. I strongly suspect that your first premise is
> false information. That is the premise that everything that exists must
> have a creator. How do you know that is true? I suppose that you might
> come up with another syllogism to arrive at that premise, but then I
> would have to question the premises in the second syllogism. Ultimately,
> no matter how logical your argument it is necessary to provide some
> evidence for the premises. So how do you know that everything that
> exists must have a creator. Please provide an answer that has something
> to do with it being true. If you cannot come up with a reason to believe
> it then your claim has as much validity as the claim that a paisley
> unicorn is orbiting Jupiter in a tea cup.
>
>
> On 8/13/2017 12:58 AM, Bob wrote:
>> Hello, on each Sunday morning, fellow Congregationalists gather to
>> worship. In the Koran, there is a chapter called chapter of Mary. It
>> is numbered the nineteenthin a typical Koranic index. At its
>> inception, allah mentions when prophet Zechariah peace be upon him
>> desperately implored to his Lord in seclusion. He said, my Lord, my
>> bones have become feeble and my head has flamed with grey hair, and my
>> Lord, I have been never disappointed with my prayer to you. And, I
>> have been frightened with the dependants after me and my spouse has
>> been barren, so grant me with you a grace an heir. Shall he inherit me
>> and inherit from the house of Jacob, and make him my Lord pleasing. Oh
>> Zechariah, we give you the glad tidings of a boy named John, a name We
>> have never been given before. He said, my Lord, how can I have a son,
>> when my spouse is barren, and I have become decrepit with old age. He
>> said, It will be so, your Lord says, it is easy for me, and I created
>> you before, when you were nothing. He said, my Lord, give me a sign,
>> he said, your sign that you shall not speak to people for three nights
>> consecutively. And he came out to his people from the sanctuary and
>> signaled to them, glorify in the morning and evening. Oh John, hold
>> the scripture firmly and We gave him wisdom in his youth. And
>> tenderness from Us, and innocence. He was devout. And he was dutiful
>> to his parents, and he was not disobedient, tyrant. And peace be upon
>> him the day he was born, the day he dies and the day he is raised
>> alive. And mention in the Scripture Mary, when she withdrew from her
>> people to an eastern place. She screened herself away from them, and
>> We sent to her Our spirit, and He appeared to her as an immaculate
>> human. She said, I take refuge from you to the Most Merciful, should
>> you be righteous. He said, I am only the messenger of your Lord, to
>> give you the gift of a pure son. She said, how can I have a son when
>> no man has touched me and I was never unchaste. He said, thus said
>> your Lord, It is easy for Me, and We will make him a sign for
>> humanity, and a mercy from Us. The matter was predetermined. So she
>> carried him, and secluded herself with him in a remote place.
>> Laborpains came upon her by the trunk of a palmtree. She said, I wish
>> I had died before this and been completely forgotten. Whereupon he
>> called her from beneath her, shall not you grieve, your Lord has
>> placed a stream beneath you. And shake the trunk of the palmtree
>> towards you and it will drop on you edible dates. So eat,drinkand be
>> consoled. If you see any human, say, I have vowed a fast to the Most
>> Gracious, so I will not speak to any human today. Then she came to her
>> people carrying him, they said, oh Mary, you truly have done something
>> terrible. Oh sister of Aaron, your father was not wicked nor your
>> mother was unchaste. So she pointed to him, they said, how can we
>> speak to an infant in the crib. He said, I indeed am the servant of
>> Allah, He has given me the scripture and made me a prophet. And has
>> made me blessed wherever I may be, and has enjoined on me prayer and
>> charity, so long as I live. And deutiful to my mother, and hasn't made
>> me disobedient, rebel. So Peace is upon me the day I was born, and the
>> day I die, and the Day I get resurrected alive. This is indeed Jesus
>> son of Mary, the sentiment of truth upon which they tend to dispute.
>> Truly, Allah is my and your Lord, so worship Him. This is basically
>> the straight path. The Koran then says, and factions have dissented
>> from among them, so woe to those who disbelieved from the scene of a
>> great day. Each and every denomination has its rendition of who Jesus
>> was. However, Islam presents to the sincere seeker a plain portrait of
>> his genuine account. I am not destined to relentlessly argue. Each and
>> every individual is perfectly autonomous. I am not urging the provoke
>> of a uselessly theological debate. I am just presenting, without
>> stereotypic notion, the Islamic version of the Nativity tale. There
>> are major factors to consider. First, the Islamic story demonstrates
>> in clear terms, Allah's illimitable measurelessly Omnipotence. Second,
>> it enormously honours both Zechariah and John whom Christians call the
>> Baptist as equally, notable prophets. Third, it plainly honours Mary
>> and it righteously recognises her unparalleled celibacy. Fourth, it
>> recognises the Nativity tale while scrupulously maintaining plain
>> monotheism, exalting the divine from bearing a son. Fifth and
>> ultimately, it emphatically exonerates virtuous Mary from the
>> intolerable allegation Jews wrongfully impeached her with. I urge the
>> recipient of this post to carefully ponder, I do not urge you to
>> hasten. I am a caller to Islam. I at the end, want to ask you one
>> simple question. This question demands a clear and a straightforward
>> answer. If Allah is providentially Omnipotent, what is the problem
>> with Him procreating offspring from a decrepitly aged man and a barren
>> woman? Similarly, if Allah's Omnipotence is measureless,what is the
>> problem with Him procreating offspring from a virgin, and without any
>> masculine intervention? I believe that this question is rationally
>> valid and it therefore demands a logical answer. I again, do not
>> hasten anyone to instantly respond. I just am urging you to think
>> properly. Here is Bob greeting you, peace, blessings and much respect
>> from me.
>>
>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient&utm_term=icon>
>>
>> Virus-free. www.avast.com
>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient&utm_term=link>
>>
>>
>>
>> <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>
>
Friday, August 11, 2017
Re: [blind-democracy] Mahmoud Abbas decrees sweeping internet speech restrictions
Can we say, Muzzled? Of course we can. It's a Beautiful Day in Israel!
Kara remains committed to shutting Al Jazeera down, stating: "The safety of our
citizens and their well-being supersedes freedom of expression during times
of terror."
Back in the late 40's and 50's, "We" had to protect Americans from
those sneaky Commies, who slid out from under every rock and
infiltrated our Labor Unions, our National Teacher's Union, Hollywood
and "The Arts". It seemed that the only people safe were the Ruling
Class! Not since we beat back those Pesky Redskins, had honest, hard
working Americans been so threatened. Oh sure, there was that brief
flutter over an invasion from Flying Saucers, but they seemed to lose
interest after they got stuck in mid day rush hour traffic in
Pasadena.
But it's so confusing.
I mean, how can we protect our Ruling Class, our beloved Corporate
Capitalism, when we are being taxed and worked into poverty already?
But that's dangerous talk, putting us close to being labeled "Homeland
Terrorists". It's hard to know just who to believe. But soon that
problem will be solved when all opinions other than those of our
Empire are ruled Terrorist Attacks, and they are shut down. Then we
will be free to think whatever we want...as long as we keep our mouths
shut.
"God Bless America, Land of the Free and the Brave"...just so long as
we kiss the ring of the Empire.
Carl Jarvis
On 8/10/17, > From The Electronic Intifada
>
> Mahmoud Abbas decrees sweeping internet speech restrictions
>
> Charlotte Silver Rights and Accountability 9 August 2017
>
> Decree by PA leader Mahmoud Abbas imposes fines, prison and hard labor on
> Palestinians who violate "public manners" or harm "social harmony" with
> online comments.
> (Wisam Hashlamoun / APA images)
>
> Palestinian media and human rights groups are calling on the Palestinian
> Authority to suspend the new "Electronic Crimes" law that critics say is a
> sweeping attack on the right to free expression and privacy.
>
> Meanwhile, an Israeli minister is facing difficulties in his effort to shut
> down Al Jazeera.
>
> The law was approved in secrecy by PA leader Mahmoud Abbas on 24 June.
> Without any public discussion, it reportedly went into effect just two
> weeks
> later.
>
> Groups including the Palestinian Journalists Syndicate, the Independent
> Committee for Human Rights and the Palestinian Center for Development and
> Media Freedoms (MADA), have all denounced the law, warning it will further
> erode Palestinians' rights.
>
> Social Media Exchange, a group that monitors laws that affect digital
> rights
> in the Arab world, translated the most troubling parts of Abbas' decree.
>
> It stipulates that acts online that harm "national unity" or "social
> harmony" will be punishable by hard labor for three to 15 years.
>
> The law allows for anyone to be imprisoned for one year and fined up to
> $7,000 for violating "public manners" online.
>
> It requires internet service providers to cooperate with Palestinian
> intelligence agencies, and collect, store and share user information.
>
> It also empowers the PA attorney general to block any website and allows
> the
> public prosecutor "to monitor and record online communications" deemed
> "necessary for investigations."
>
> Writing for Global Voices, digital rights researcher Marwa Fatafta reports
> that the law extends to Palestinians living abroad, though it is not clear
> how it would be enforced on people outside the occupied West Bank.
>
> PA crackdown on journalists
>
> Both Israel and the Palestinian Authority, which work together closely to
> control the Palestinian population under military occupation, already jail
> Palestinians for their postings on social media.
>
> The decree's enactment comes as the PA oversees a wave of press violations
> including arrests for statements made on social media.
>
> At the beginning of June, the Palestinian Authority arrested 23-year-old
> Nassar Jaradat for posting on his Facebook page a call for a "people's
> revolution" against the Fatah leadership - Abbas' political faction.
>
> This week, PA intelligence agencies in the occupied West Bank arrested four
> journalists from several local outlets, accusing them of "leaking sensitive
> information."
>
> Speaking at a recent forum of groups concerned about the new decree, Mousa
> Rimawi, the director of MADA, noted that the PA's press violations exceeded
> Israel's in June and that authorities have blocked access to 29 news
> websites that belong to political critics.
>
> Trouble with Al Jazeera
>
> Meanwhile, Israel's communications minister Ayoub Kara is running into
> difficulties as he moves forward with his promise to shut down Al Jazeera's
> Jerusalem bureau.
>
> Following in the footsteps of Saudi Arabia and other Gulf states that have
> mounted a campaign against Qatar and its media network, Kara and Israeli
> Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu have accused Al Jazeera of "incitement"
> and vowed to shut it down.
>
> Amnesty International has called Israel's attempt to shut down Al Jazeera a
> "chilling message that Israeli authorities will not tolerate critical
> coverage."
>
> "This is a brazen attack on media freedom in Israel and the occupied
> Palestinian territories," Magdalena Mughrabi, Amnesty's deputy Middle East
> and North Africa director, said in a statement on Monday.
>
> But the Tel Aviv newspaper Haaretz reports that Kara is meeting resistance
> as he attempts to shutter the network in Israel, starting with his request
> that the Government Press Office revoke the credentials of Al Jazeera
> journalists.
>
> According to Haaretz, the Government Press Office does not have the
> authority to revoke press credentials. Israeli security agencies would have
> to first make the recommendation on the basis that Al Jazeera would
> "endanger national security."
>
> "I have contacted these agencies, asking for a professional opinion
> regarding Al Jazeera," said Government Press Office director Nitzan Chen,
> who noted that credentials will not be revoked without an "an orderly
> hearing, as specified by regulations."
>
> Kara has asked broadcast companies for help, but they have so far failed to
> express any willingness to remove Al Jazeera from their service.
>
> He has also asked public security minister Gilad Erdan for assistance, but
> Erdan referred him to the Israeli police, who sent Kara back to the public
> security ministry.
>
> This leaves Kara with the option to try to pass an amendment to the law, a
> process that would not begin until the fall.
>
> Bending over backwards
>
> During Israel's regular attacks on Gaza, including the last major one three
> years ago that killed more than 2,200 Palestinians, Al Jazeera has
> regularly
> provided Israeli officials with air time to justify their lethal attacks on
> Palestinians.
>
> Amid the recent increase in tension around the al-Aqsa mosque compound in
> Jerusalem, Al Jazeera's Arabic channel interviewed Yoav Mordechai, the
> Israeli military officer who governs the occupied West Bank.
>
> Despite the network extensively providing Israel with a platform, Kara
> remains committed to shutting Al Jazeera down, stating: "The safety of our
> citizens and their well-being supersedes freedom of expression during times
> of terror."
>
> "The freedom of expression is not the freedom to incite and foment strife,"
> he added. "Even democracy has its limits."
>
>
>
>
>
Kara remains committed to shutting Al Jazeera down, stating: "The safety of our
citizens and their well-being supersedes freedom of expression during times
of terror."
Back in the late 40's and 50's, "We" had to protect Americans from
those sneaky Commies, who slid out from under every rock and
infiltrated our Labor Unions, our National Teacher's Union, Hollywood
and "The Arts". It seemed that the only people safe were the Ruling
Class! Not since we beat back those Pesky Redskins, had honest, hard
working Americans been so threatened. Oh sure, there was that brief
flutter over an invasion from Flying Saucers, but they seemed to lose
interest after they got stuck in mid day rush hour traffic in
Pasadena.
But it's so confusing.
I mean, how can we protect our Ruling Class, our beloved Corporate
Capitalism, when we are being taxed and worked into poverty already?
But that's dangerous talk, putting us close to being labeled "Homeland
Terrorists". It's hard to know just who to believe. But soon that
problem will be solved when all opinions other than those of our
Empire are ruled Terrorist Attacks, and they are shut down. Then we
will be free to think whatever we want...as long as we keep our mouths
shut.
"God Bless America, Land of the Free and the Brave"...just so long as
we kiss the ring of the Empire.
Carl Jarvis
On 8/10/17, > From The Electronic Intifada
>
> Mahmoud Abbas decrees sweeping internet speech restrictions
>
> Charlotte Silver Rights and Accountability 9 August 2017
>
> Decree by PA leader Mahmoud Abbas imposes fines, prison and hard labor on
> Palestinians who violate "public manners" or harm "social harmony" with
> online comments.
> (Wisam Hashlamoun / APA images)
>
> Palestinian media and human rights groups are calling on the Palestinian
> Authority to suspend the new "Electronic Crimes" law that critics say is a
> sweeping attack on the right to free expression and privacy.
>
> Meanwhile, an Israeli minister is facing difficulties in his effort to shut
> down Al Jazeera.
>
> The law was approved in secrecy by PA leader Mahmoud Abbas on 24 June.
> Without any public discussion, it reportedly went into effect just two
> weeks
> later.
>
> Groups including the Palestinian Journalists Syndicate, the Independent
> Committee for Human Rights and the Palestinian Center for Development and
> Media Freedoms (MADA), have all denounced the law, warning it will further
> erode Palestinians' rights.
>
> Social Media Exchange, a group that monitors laws that affect digital
> rights
> in the Arab world, translated the most troubling parts of Abbas' decree.
>
> It stipulates that acts online that harm "national unity" or "social
> harmony" will be punishable by hard labor for three to 15 years.
>
> The law allows for anyone to be imprisoned for one year and fined up to
> $7,000 for violating "public manners" online.
>
> It requires internet service providers to cooperate with Palestinian
> intelligence agencies, and collect, store and share user information.
>
> It also empowers the PA attorney general to block any website and allows
> the
> public prosecutor "to monitor and record online communications" deemed
> "necessary for investigations."
>
> Writing for Global Voices, digital rights researcher Marwa Fatafta reports
> that the law extends to Palestinians living abroad, though it is not clear
> how it would be enforced on people outside the occupied West Bank.
>
> PA crackdown on journalists
>
> Both Israel and the Palestinian Authority, which work together closely to
> control the Palestinian population under military occupation, already jail
> Palestinians for their postings on social media.
>
> The decree's enactment comes as the PA oversees a wave of press violations
> including arrests for statements made on social media.
>
> At the beginning of June, the Palestinian Authority arrested 23-year-old
> Nassar Jaradat for posting on his Facebook page a call for a "people's
> revolution" against the Fatah leadership - Abbas' political faction.
>
> This week, PA intelligence agencies in the occupied West Bank arrested four
> journalists from several local outlets, accusing them of "leaking sensitive
> information."
>
> Speaking at a recent forum of groups concerned about the new decree, Mousa
> Rimawi, the director of MADA, noted that the PA's press violations exceeded
> Israel's in June and that authorities have blocked access to 29 news
> websites that belong to political critics.
>
> Trouble with Al Jazeera
>
> Meanwhile, Israel's communications minister Ayoub Kara is running into
> difficulties as he moves forward with his promise to shut down Al Jazeera's
> Jerusalem bureau.
>
> Following in the footsteps of Saudi Arabia and other Gulf states that have
> mounted a campaign against Qatar and its media network, Kara and Israeli
> Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu have accused Al Jazeera of "incitement"
> and vowed to shut it down.
>
> Amnesty International has called Israel's attempt to shut down Al Jazeera a
> "chilling message that Israeli authorities will not tolerate critical
> coverage."
>
> "This is a brazen attack on media freedom in Israel and the occupied
> Palestinian territories," Magdalena Mughrabi, Amnesty's deputy Middle East
> and North Africa director, said in a statement on Monday.
>
> But the Tel Aviv newspaper Haaretz reports that Kara is meeting resistance
> as he attempts to shutter the network in Israel, starting with his request
> that the Government Press Office revoke the credentials of Al Jazeera
> journalists.
>
> According to Haaretz, the Government Press Office does not have the
> authority to revoke press credentials. Israeli security agencies would have
> to first make the recommendation on the basis that Al Jazeera would
> "endanger national security."
>
> "I have contacted these agencies, asking for a professional opinion
> regarding Al Jazeera," said Government Press Office director Nitzan Chen,
> who noted that credentials will not be revoked without an "an orderly
> hearing, as specified by regulations."
>
> Kara has asked broadcast companies for help, but they have so far failed to
> express any willingness to remove Al Jazeera from their service.
>
> He has also asked public security minister Gilad Erdan for assistance, but
> Erdan referred him to the Israeli police, who sent Kara back to the public
> security ministry.
>
> This leaves Kara with the option to try to pass an amendment to the law, a
> process that would not begin until the fall.
>
> Bending over backwards
>
> During Israel's regular attacks on Gaza, including the last major one three
> years ago that killed more than 2,200 Palestinians, Al Jazeera has
> regularly
> provided Israeli officials with air time to justify their lethal attacks on
> Palestinians.
>
> Amid the recent increase in tension around the al-Aqsa mosque compound in
> Jerusalem, Al Jazeera's Arabic channel interviewed Yoav Mordechai, the
> Israeli military officer who governs the occupied West Bank.
>
> Despite the network extensively providing Israel with a platform, Kara
> remains committed to shutting Al Jazeera down, stating: "The safety of our
> citizens and their well-being supersedes freedom of expression during times
> of terror."
>
> "The freedom of expression is not the freedom to incite and foment strife,"
> he added. "Even democracy has its limits."
>
>
>
>
>
Saturday, August 5, 2017
Re: [blind-democracy] Re: President Trump Pushes Yet Another Problematic Immigration Bill
Yes. I understand that utterances from the lips of Donald Trump cause
hurtful things to occur. But if we keep our attention on Donald
Trumps words, we may not see that Donald Trump is merely the visible
face on a long time festering cancer that I call the American
Oligarchy. Going after Donald Trump is likened to cutting out a
cancer spot in someones lung, when the cancer cells are scattered
throughout the entire body. Another spot surfaces, then another.
Unless the entire body can be purified, cancer will win. The problem,
the ugliness erupting in America, is not named Donald Trump. The
terrible place we find ourselves in, that is, we the working class, is
caused by our inability to remove the entire cancer from our body.
Even if Donald Trump said, "enough", and left the Presidency, even
then we would be looking into the eyes of Mike Pence. Mike Pence.
Totally dedicated to "The Salvation of the White Race", in the name of
Jesus! Herding the working class like frightened sheep, warning us of
Terrorists infiltrating our ranks, Evil Ones wanting to destroy us in
the name of Allah, while all the time greed driven ones go about
sipping the last drops of blood from our bodies.
Our mighty God, Science, whom we have worshiped for so many years, has
delivered us from much of the drudgery and uncertainty of life, that
is if we are among the fortunate ones, even as it has provided
fearsome tools that can enslave us. We may well be looking at the New
Dark Age, a long winter that holds us captive and beholden to those
who hold the products of Science in their hands. If we stand against
the Establishment in the belief that we will win, I am sorry to say,
"Not in my lifetime", and probably not in the lifetime of our
grandchildren. Today's victories will come in little bits and pieces.
A family sheltered from deportation, a young woman taken in and
protected from abuse. Our victories will come from people caring and
looking out for people, despite the threats by the "Masters". But we
should not fool ourselves into thinking that by spreading caring and
love, that we will see some mighty enlightenment. And yet, we must
somehow build a base from which we will someday replace the century
old, Rule by Violence" system that has held us captive. We need to
understand that so long as we see the world in terms of the "have" and
the "have not", we will lose regardless of who sits on top of the
heap. We must come to the place where we see each and every human
being as a, "Have". We must develop a new method of providing for one
another. The method of a few ruling the many is always doomed to
failure. Still, even if others agree, we are a very long way from our
dependence upon the rule by a dominate few.
In the remaining years I have left to live, I can only make certain
that I keep my house clean of cancer. And in spite of my many short
comings, I can see that my having been here has had an impact on my
children, grandchildren and others around me. And that is my personal
victory.
Carl Jarvis
On 8/4/17, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@optonline.net> wrote:
> The thing is that things are happening as a result of what Donald Trump
> says. Immigrants from Latin America are really suffering. Families are
> really being torn apart more often than before and more viciously. Not only
> that, but the actions of large numbers of angry, racist, religious bigots
> are being encouraged so more hate crimes are being committed now than
> before. And the most vulnerable people are terrified. They live in fear.
> Their lives have been up ended That's why what he says and does, matters.
> And this very crazy man has the power to start a nuclear war right this
> minute, if he chooses.
>
> Miriam
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blind-democracy-bounce@freelists.org
> [mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@freelists.org] On Behalf Of Carl Jarvis
> Sent: Friday, August 04, 2017 5:51 PM
> To: blind-democracy@freelists.org
> Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: President Trump Pushes Yet Another
> Problematic Immigration Bill
>
> I'm just not getting all of this attention being paid to Donald Trump's
> every utterance. My dad, who never strayed from his roots as a working
> class man, began as a laborer digging ditches at the Bremerton Shipyard
> during the early years of WW II, and at the last of his working career, was
> in high demand as a structural Steel Estimator. Wearing a title, a white
> shirt, a tie from among those carefully picked by mother, and only his wits
> to enable him to survive, since he was now in the company of men who sneered
> at any suggestion that they should Organize. These were those fellows who
> yearned to live life in the manner of the boss. They were a surly, snarly,
> humorless bunch of grumblers and gripers. They despised the "blue collar"
> workers, the guys who laughed and told really bad but funny jokes, and
> earned a decent wage with time and a half for overtime, and annual leave and
> sick leave and a good retirement. And all of that because they had the good
> sense to organize and to believe that they could live a good, fulfilling
> life without having to act like the boss.
> Anyway, dad's work took him back and forth from his office, to the job site,
> to the boss's office and to "high level" conferences. These conferences
> were along the lines of a DMZ, where all guns were left at the door, and
> where every company owner in the steel business gathered to pretend that
> they were in the company of great genius. I had the...good fortune to
> attend a couple of such high level and secret gatherings. I swear, and I'm
> not making this up, but I swear that the room was filled with Donald Trump
> clones. Seriously! Glad handing everyone, including me, squinting up in
> one face after another, giving toothy grins. And all the time telling every
> one just how special this meeting was, and how important that we all work
> together.
> After the conferences dad would usually have to go to the bosses home for a
> "debriefing"...a comparison of information and a chance for the boss to tell
> someone just what a bunch of crooks and insincere bastards all the other
> bosses were. Dad, with a wife and three kids to provide for, could always
> side step a bit by saying things like, "I wouldn't turn my back". Of course
> dad was including his own boss, but never said so out loud. These were hard
> swinging, no holds barred businessmen, looking at the world as a Plum to be
> plucked. Getting ahead meant, to these aggressive fellows, doing anything
> that would give them an advantage over all the others. And that is Donald
> Trump.
> Raised to believe that if you want it, be man enough to take it...whatever
> you must do to win.
> In other words, voters sent to the White House a carbon copy of the classic
> Capitalist Corporate Executive Officer. Finally, out of the closet for the
> first time, a composite of all the endearing qualities that have made
> America's corporations so beloved by the nations of the world.
> And saddest of all is that there are people who honestly believe that Donald
> Trump has a heart and a Soul, and that he is really trying to make life
> better for the little folks, if only the big bad government and those
> Leftists would give him a chance.
> There are those who long to see this president impeached. I am not among
> that number. Yes, Donald Trump is a loose cannon, yes he loves the
> limelight almost as much as he loves Donald Trump, but I can live with all
> of that because, in the dark shadows 'neath the dim lit seller stairs, there
> lurks a Bogyman, a creature waiting for his turn to step into the Oval
> Office and have his turn at sucking the nation's treasury dry.
> And Mike Pence will do it all in the Lord's name!
>
> Carl Jarvis
>
>
> On 8/4/17, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@optonline.net> wrote:
>> One fact: Trump brings in foreign guest labor to do all construction
>> on his properties which certainly doesn't provide jobs for Americans.
>> Miriam
>> Truthdig
>> President Trump Pushes Yet Another Problematic Immigration Bill
>>
>> http://www.truthdig.com/eartotheground/item/trump_pushes_raise_act_201
>> 70802/
>>
>> Posted on Aug 2, 2017
>>
>> President Trump with Sen. Tom Cotton, R-Ark., left, and Sen. David
>> Perdue, R-Ga., at the White House on Wednesday, unveiling proposed
>> legislation to place new limits on legal immigration. (Evan Vucci /
>> AP)
>>
>> President Trump on Wednesday endorsed a new GOP Senate bill that would
>> slash legal immigration levels over a decade, apparently aimed at
>> dramatically reducing legal immigration overall. The bill is a
>> modified version of legislation
>> (https://www.cotton.senate.gov/?p=press_release&id=765)
>> proposed in April, which would have cut immigration in half, and
>> focuses on cutting back what is known as "chain migration"-ways of
>> immigrating to the U.S. based on family ties.
>>
>> The new Republican bill, called the RAISE Act (short for Reforming
>> American Immigration for Strong Employment Act) is co-authored by
>> Republican Sens.
>> Tom Cotton and David Perdue. It would alter the immigration screening
>> process to favor English speakers with the purported ability to
>> support themselves financially and demonstrate skills that will
>> benefit the economy.
>> It would also, according to the president, prohibit recently arrived
>> green-card holders from receiving welfare. Trump problematically
>> referred to this as a "merit-based" system on Wednesday.
>>
>> Writes The Washington Post: (
>> https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2017/08/02/trump-
>> gop-se
>> nators-to-introduce-bill-to-slash-legal-immigration-levels/?utm_term=.
>> a00fca
>> 832823 )
>>
>>
>> To achieve the reductions and create what they call a "merit-based
>> system,"
>> Cotton and Perdue are taking aim at green cards for extended family
>> members of U.S. citizens and legal permanent residents, limiting such
>> avenues for grown children and siblings. Minor children and spouses
>> would still be eligible to apply for green cards.
>>
>> The senators also propose to end a visa diversity lottery that has
>> awarded
>> 50,000 green cards a year, mostly to areas in the world that
>> traditionally do not have as many immigrants to the United States,
>> including Africa. And the bill caps refugee levels at 50,000 per year.
>>
>> Trump declares the bill to be the most significant immigration reform
>> in half a century. He says that one of the main motivations to pass
>> the bill is to prevent the displacement of American workers-a claim
>> that's echoed by Cotton, who has said that while immigrant rights
>> groups might view the current system as a "symbol of American virtue
>> and generosity," he sees it "as a symbol we're not committed to
>> working-class Americans and we need to change that."
>>
>> To the contrary, studies suggest (
>> https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/22/us/immigrants-arent-taking-american
>> s-jobs -new-study-finds.html ) this evaluation is somewhat
>> misleading:
>>
>>
>> The (National Academy of Sciences, Engineering and Medicine) report
>> assembles research from 14 leading economists, demographers and other
>> scholars, including some, like Marta Tienda of Princeton, who write
>> favorably about the impacts of immigration and others who are
>> skeptical of its benefits, like George J. Borjas, a Harvard economist.
>> Here's what the report says:
>>
>> "We found little to no negative effects on overall wages and
>> employment of native-born workers in the longer term," said Francine
>> D. Blau, an economics professor at Cornell University who led the
>> group that produced the 550-page report.
>>
>> An article posted on Politico (
>> http://www.politico.com/story/2017/02/immigration-trump-senate-cotton-
>> 234706
>> ) included similar opinions:
>>
>>
>> "Economists overwhelmingly think that immigration is good for the
>> economy.
>> That's not just true at the high-skilled, but low-skilled level," said
>> Jeremy Robbins, the executive director of the Partnership for a New
>> American Economy, the pro-reform group led by former New York City
>> Mayor Michael Bloomberg.
>>
>> Robbins, who regularly meets with GOP lawmakers, added: "There is
>> overwhelming support in Congress for the idea of immigration as an
>> economic driver, including in the Republican conference."
>>
>> Trump's elevation of immigration to the forefront of his agenda
>> probably represents a bid to pull public attention away from the
>> recent GOP defeat on health care. This latest immigration bill's
>> chances are slim in the Senate, given that it would require 60 GOP
>> votes to thwart a Democratic filibuster.
>> Trump has hammered Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell on Twitter,
>> insisting that McConnell abolish the filibuster to better enable the
>> GOP to pass its legislative agenda.
>>
>> -Posted by Emily Wells
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Ethics Group Wants Steve Bannon Investigated for Public Relations
>> Relationship
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Robert Rosenthal: Investigative Journalism Must Embrace Tech (Audio)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Scheer: 'Fake News' Label Is Used to 'Whitewash American History'
>> (Video)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Attorney General Sessions Threatens to Punish 'Sanctuary Cities'
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Truthdig: Drilling Beneath the Headlines
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> C 2017 Truthdig, LLC. All rights reserved.
>>
>>
>> Signup for Truthdig's newsletter
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> gumgum-verify
>>
>>
>> AdChoices
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
hurtful things to occur. But if we keep our attention on Donald
Trumps words, we may not see that Donald Trump is merely the visible
face on a long time festering cancer that I call the American
Oligarchy. Going after Donald Trump is likened to cutting out a
cancer spot in someones lung, when the cancer cells are scattered
throughout the entire body. Another spot surfaces, then another.
Unless the entire body can be purified, cancer will win. The problem,
the ugliness erupting in America, is not named Donald Trump. The
terrible place we find ourselves in, that is, we the working class, is
caused by our inability to remove the entire cancer from our body.
Even if Donald Trump said, "enough", and left the Presidency, even
then we would be looking into the eyes of Mike Pence. Mike Pence.
Totally dedicated to "The Salvation of the White Race", in the name of
Jesus! Herding the working class like frightened sheep, warning us of
Terrorists infiltrating our ranks, Evil Ones wanting to destroy us in
the name of Allah, while all the time greed driven ones go about
sipping the last drops of blood from our bodies.
Our mighty God, Science, whom we have worshiped for so many years, has
delivered us from much of the drudgery and uncertainty of life, that
is if we are among the fortunate ones, even as it has provided
fearsome tools that can enslave us. We may well be looking at the New
Dark Age, a long winter that holds us captive and beholden to those
who hold the products of Science in their hands. If we stand against
the Establishment in the belief that we will win, I am sorry to say,
"Not in my lifetime", and probably not in the lifetime of our
grandchildren. Today's victories will come in little bits and pieces.
A family sheltered from deportation, a young woman taken in and
protected from abuse. Our victories will come from people caring and
looking out for people, despite the threats by the "Masters". But we
should not fool ourselves into thinking that by spreading caring and
love, that we will see some mighty enlightenment. And yet, we must
somehow build a base from which we will someday replace the century
old, Rule by Violence" system that has held us captive. We need to
understand that so long as we see the world in terms of the "have" and
the "have not", we will lose regardless of who sits on top of the
heap. We must come to the place where we see each and every human
being as a, "Have". We must develop a new method of providing for one
another. The method of a few ruling the many is always doomed to
failure. Still, even if others agree, we are a very long way from our
dependence upon the rule by a dominate few.
In the remaining years I have left to live, I can only make certain
that I keep my house clean of cancer. And in spite of my many short
comings, I can see that my having been here has had an impact on my
children, grandchildren and others around me. And that is my personal
victory.
Carl Jarvis
On 8/4/17, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@optonline.net> wrote:
> The thing is that things are happening as a result of what Donald Trump
> says. Immigrants from Latin America are really suffering. Families are
> really being torn apart more often than before and more viciously. Not only
> that, but the actions of large numbers of angry, racist, religious bigots
> are being encouraged so more hate crimes are being committed now than
> before. And the most vulnerable people are terrified. They live in fear.
> Their lives have been up ended That's why what he says and does, matters.
> And this very crazy man has the power to start a nuclear war right this
> minute, if he chooses.
>
> Miriam
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blind-democracy-bounce@freelists.org
> [mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@freelists.org] On Behalf Of Carl Jarvis
> Sent: Friday, August 04, 2017 5:51 PM
> To: blind-democracy@freelists.org
> Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: President Trump Pushes Yet Another
> Problematic Immigration Bill
>
> I'm just not getting all of this attention being paid to Donald Trump's
> every utterance. My dad, who never strayed from his roots as a working
> class man, began as a laborer digging ditches at the Bremerton Shipyard
> during the early years of WW II, and at the last of his working career, was
> in high demand as a structural Steel Estimator. Wearing a title, a white
> shirt, a tie from among those carefully picked by mother, and only his wits
> to enable him to survive, since he was now in the company of men who sneered
> at any suggestion that they should Organize. These were those fellows who
> yearned to live life in the manner of the boss. They were a surly, snarly,
> humorless bunch of grumblers and gripers. They despised the "blue collar"
> workers, the guys who laughed and told really bad but funny jokes, and
> earned a decent wage with time and a half for overtime, and annual leave and
> sick leave and a good retirement. And all of that because they had the good
> sense to organize and to believe that they could live a good, fulfilling
> life without having to act like the boss.
> Anyway, dad's work took him back and forth from his office, to the job site,
> to the boss's office and to "high level" conferences. These conferences
> were along the lines of a DMZ, where all guns were left at the door, and
> where every company owner in the steel business gathered to pretend that
> they were in the company of great genius. I had the...good fortune to
> attend a couple of such high level and secret gatherings. I swear, and I'm
> not making this up, but I swear that the room was filled with Donald Trump
> clones. Seriously! Glad handing everyone, including me, squinting up in
> one face after another, giving toothy grins. And all the time telling every
> one just how special this meeting was, and how important that we all work
> together.
> After the conferences dad would usually have to go to the bosses home for a
> "debriefing"...a comparison of information and a chance for the boss to tell
> someone just what a bunch of crooks and insincere bastards all the other
> bosses were. Dad, with a wife and three kids to provide for, could always
> side step a bit by saying things like, "I wouldn't turn my back". Of course
> dad was including his own boss, but never said so out loud. These were hard
> swinging, no holds barred businessmen, looking at the world as a Plum to be
> plucked. Getting ahead meant, to these aggressive fellows, doing anything
> that would give them an advantage over all the others. And that is Donald
> Trump.
> Raised to believe that if you want it, be man enough to take it...whatever
> you must do to win.
> In other words, voters sent to the White House a carbon copy of the classic
> Capitalist Corporate Executive Officer. Finally, out of the closet for the
> first time, a composite of all the endearing qualities that have made
> America's corporations so beloved by the nations of the world.
> And saddest of all is that there are people who honestly believe that Donald
> Trump has a heart and a Soul, and that he is really trying to make life
> better for the little folks, if only the big bad government and those
> Leftists would give him a chance.
> There are those who long to see this president impeached. I am not among
> that number. Yes, Donald Trump is a loose cannon, yes he loves the
> limelight almost as much as he loves Donald Trump, but I can live with all
> of that because, in the dark shadows 'neath the dim lit seller stairs, there
> lurks a Bogyman, a creature waiting for his turn to step into the Oval
> Office and have his turn at sucking the nation's treasury dry.
> And Mike Pence will do it all in the Lord's name!
>
> Carl Jarvis
>
>
> On 8/4/17, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@optonline.net> wrote:
>> One fact: Trump brings in foreign guest labor to do all construction
>> on his properties which certainly doesn't provide jobs for Americans.
>> Miriam
>> Truthdig
>> President Trump Pushes Yet Another Problematic Immigration Bill
>>
>> http://www.truthdig.com/eartotheground/item/trump_pushes_raise_act_201
>> 70802/
>>
>> Posted on Aug 2, 2017
>>
>> President Trump with Sen. Tom Cotton, R-Ark., left, and Sen. David
>> Perdue, R-Ga., at the White House on Wednesday, unveiling proposed
>> legislation to place new limits on legal immigration. (Evan Vucci /
>> AP)
>>
>> President Trump on Wednesday endorsed a new GOP Senate bill that would
>> slash legal immigration levels over a decade, apparently aimed at
>> dramatically reducing legal immigration overall. The bill is a
>> modified version of legislation
>> (https://www.cotton.senate.gov/?p=press_release&id=765)
>> proposed in April, which would have cut immigration in half, and
>> focuses on cutting back what is known as "chain migration"-ways of
>> immigrating to the U.S. based on family ties.
>>
>> The new Republican bill, called the RAISE Act (short for Reforming
>> American Immigration for Strong Employment Act) is co-authored by
>> Republican Sens.
>> Tom Cotton and David Perdue. It would alter the immigration screening
>> process to favor English speakers with the purported ability to
>> support themselves financially and demonstrate skills that will
>> benefit the economy.
>> It would also, according to the president, prohibit recently arrived
>> green-card holders from receiving welfare. Trump problematically
>> referred to this as a "merit-based" system on Wednesday.
>>
>> Writes The Washington Post: (
>> https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2017/08/02/trump-
>> gop-se
>> nators-to-introduce-bill-to-slash-legal-immigration-levels/?utm_term=.
>> a00fca
>> 832823 )
>>
>>
>> To achieve the reductions and create what they call a "merit-based
>> system,"
>> Cotton and Perdue are taking aim at green cards for extended family
>> members of U.S. citizens and legal permanent residents, limiting such
>> avenues for grown children and siblings. Minor children and spouses
>> would still be eligible to apply for green cards.
>>
>> The senators also propose to end a visa diversity lottery that has
>> awarded
>> 50,000 green cards a year, mostly to areas in the world that
>> traditionally do not have as many immigrants to the United States,
>> including Africa. And the bill caps refugee levels at 50,000 per year.
>>
>> Trump declares the bill to be the most significant immigration reform
>> in half a century. He says that one of the main motivations to pass
>> the bill is to prevent the displacement of American workers-a claim
>> that's echoed by Cotton, who has said that while immigrant rights
>> groups might view the current system as a "symbol of American virtue
>> and generosity," he sees it "as a symbol we're not committed to
>> working-class Americans and we need to change that."
>>
>> To the contrary, studies suggest (
>> https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/22/us/immigrants-arent-taking-american
>> s-jobs -new-study-finds.html ) this evaluation is somewhat
>> misleading:
>>
>>
>> The (National Academy of Sciences, Engineering and Medicine) report
>> assembles research from 14 leading economists, demographers and other
>> scholars, including some, like Marta Tienda of Princeton, who write
>> favorably about the impacts of immigration and others who are
>> skeptical of its benefits, like George J. Borjas, a Harvard economist.
>> Here's what the report says:
>>
>> "We found little to no negative effects on overall wages and
>> employment of native-born workers in the longer term," said Francine
>> D. Blau, an economics professor at Cornell University who led the
>> group that produced the 550-page report.
>>
>> An article posted on Politico (
>> http://www.politico.com/story/2017/02/immigration-trump-senate-cotton-
>> 234706
>> ) included similar opinions:
>>
>>
>> "Economists overwhelmingly think that immigration is good for the
>> economy.
>> That's not just true at the high-skilled, but low-skilled level," said
>> Jeremy Robbins, the executive director of the Partnership for a New
>> American Economy, the pro-reform group led by former New York City
>> Mayor Michael Bloomberg.
>>
>> Robbins, who regularly meets with GOP lawmakers, added: "There is
>> overwhelming support in Congress for the idea of immigration as an
>> economic driver, including in the Republican conference."
>>
>> Trump's elevation of immigration to the forefront of his agenda
>> probably represents a bid to pull public attention away from the
>> recent GOP defeat on health care. This latest immigration bill's
>> chances are slim in the Senate, given that it would require 60 GOP
>> votes to thwart a Democratic filibuster.
>> Trump has hammered Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell on Twitter,
>> insisting that McConnell abolish the filibuster to better enable the
>> GOP to pass its legislative agenda.
>>
>> -Posted by Emily Wells
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Ethics Group Wants Steve Bannon Investigated for Public Relations
>> Relationship
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Robert Rosenthal: Investigative Journalism Must Embrace Tech (Audio)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Scheer: 'Fake News' Label Is Used to 'Whitewash American History'
>> (Video)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Attorney General Sessions Threatens to Punish 'Sanctuary Cities'
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Truthdig: Drilling Beneath the Headlines
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> C 2017 Truthdig, LLC. All rights reserved.
>>
>>
>> Signup for Truthdig's newsletter
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> gumgum-verify
>>
>>
>> AdChoices
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Friday, August 4, 2017
President Trump Pushes Yet Another Problematic Immigration Bill
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Carl Jarvis <carjar82@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2017 14:50:48 -0700
Subject: Re: [blind-democracy] President Trump Pushes Yet Another
Problematic Immigration Bill
To: blind-democracy@freelists.org
I'm just not getting all of this attention being paid to Donald
Trump's every utterance. My dad, who never strayed from his roots as
a working class man, began as a laborer digging ditches at the
Bremerton Shipyard during the early years of WW II, and at the last of
his working career, was in high demand as a structural Steel
Estimator. Wearing a title, a white shirt, a tie from among those
carefully picked by mother, and only his wits to enable him to
survive, since he was now in the company of men who sneered at any
suggestion that they should Organize. These were those fellows who
yearned to live life in the manner of the boss. They were a surly,
snarly, humorless bunch of grumblers and gripers. They despised the
"blue collar" workers, the guys who laughed and told really bad but
funny jokes, and earned a decent wage with time and a half for
overtime, and annual leave and sick leave and a good retirement. And
all of that because they had the good sense to organize and to believe
that they could live a good, fulfilling life without having to act
like the boss.
Anyway, dad's work took him back and forth from his office, to the job
site, to the boss's office and to "high level" conferences. These
conferences were along the lines of a DMZ, where all guns were left at
the door, and where every company owner in the steel business gathered
to pretend that they were in the company of great genius. I had
the...good fortune to attend a couple of such high level and secret
gatherings. I swear, and I'm not making this up, but I swear that the
room was filled with Donald Trump clones. Seriously! Glad handing
everyone, including me, squinting up in one face after another, giving
toothy grins. And all the time telling every one just how special
this meeting was, and how important that we all work together.
After the conferences dad would usually have to go to the bosses home
for a "debriefing"...a comparison of information and a chance for the
boss to tell someone just what a bunch of crooks and insincere
bastards all the other bosses were. Dad, with a wife and three kids
to provide for, could always side step a bit by saying things like, "I
wouldn't turn my back". Of course dad was including his own boss, but
never said so out loud. These were hard swinging, no holds barred
businessmen, looking at the world as a Plum to be plucked. Getting
ahead meant, to these aggressive fellows, doing anything that would
give them an advantage over all the others. And that is Donald Trump.
Raised to believe that if you want it, be man enough to take
it...whatever you must do to win.
In other words, voters sent to the White House a carbon copy of the
classic Capitalist Corporate Executive Officer. Finally, out of the
closet for the first time, a composite of all the endearing qualities
that have made America's corporations so beloved by the nations of the
world.
And saddest of all is that there are people who honestly believe that
Donald Trump has a heart and a Soul, and that he is really trying to
make life better for the little folks, if only the big bad government
and those Leftists would give him a chance.
There are those who long to see this president impeached. I am not
among that number. Yes, Donald Trump is a loose cannon, yes he loves
the limelight almost as much as he loves Donald Trump, but I can live
with all of that because, in the dark shadows 'neath the dim lit
seller stairs, there lurks a Bogyman, a creature waiting for his turn
to step into the Oval Office and have his turn at sucking the nation's
treasury dry.
And Mike Pence will do it all in the Lord's name!
Carl Jarvis
On 8/4/17, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@optonline.net> wrote:
> One fact: Trump brings in foreign guest labor to do all construction on his
> properties which certainly doesn't provide jobs for Americans.
> Miriam
> Truthdig
> President Trump Pushes Yet Another Problematic Immigration Bill
>
> http://www.truthdig.com/eartotheground/item/trump_pushes_raise_act_20170802/
>
> Posted on Aug 2, 2017
>
> President Trump with Sen. Tom Cotton, R-Ark., left, and Sen. David
> Perdue,
> R-Ga., at the White House on Wednesday, unveiling proposed legislation to
> place new limits on legal immigration. (Evan Vucci / AP)
>
> President Trump on Wednesday endorsed a new GOP Senate bill that would
> slash
> legal immigration levels over a decade, apparently aimed at dramatically
> reducing legal immigration overall. The bill is a modified version of
> legislation (https://www.cotton.senate.gov/?p=press_release&id=765)
> proposed in April, which would have cut immigration in half, and focuses on
> cutting back what is known as "chain migration"-ways of immigrating to the
> U.S. based on family ties.
>
> The new Republican bill, called the RAISE Act (short for Reforming American
> Immigration for Strong Employment Act) is co-authored by Republican Sens.
> Tom Cotton and David Perdue. It would alter the immigration screening
> process to favor English speakers with the purported ability to support
> themselves financially and demonstrate skills that will benefit the
> economy.
> It would also, according to the president, prohibit recently arrived
> green-card holders from receiving welfare. Trump problematically referred
> to
> this as a "merit-based" system on Wednesday.
>
> Writes The Washington Post: (
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2017/08/02/trump-gop-se
> nators-to-introduce-bill-to-slash-legal-immigration-levels/?utm_term=.a00fca
> 832823 )
>
>
> To achieve the reductions and create what they call a "merit-based system,"
> Cotton and Perdue are taking aim at green cards for extended family members
> of U.S. citizens and legal permanent residents, limiting such avenues for
> grown children and siblings. Minor children and spouses would still be
> eligible to apply for green cards.
>
> The senators also propose to end a visa diversity lottery that has awarded
> 50,000 green cards a year, mostly to areas in the world that traditionally
> do not have as many immigrants to the United States, including Africa. And
> the bill caps refugee levels at 50,000 per year.
>
> Trump declares the bill to be the most significant immigration reform in
> half a century. He says that one of the main motivations to pass the bill
> is
> to prevent the displacement of American workers-a claim that's echoed by
> Cotton, who has said that while immigrant rights groups might view the
> current system as a "symbol of American virtue and generosity," he sees it
> "as a symbol we're not committed to working-class Americans and we need to
> change that."
>
> To the contrary, studies suggest (
> https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/22/us/immigrants-arent-taking-americans-jobs
> -new-study-finds.html ) this evaluation is somewhat misleading:
>
>
> The (National Academy of Sciences, Engineering and Medicine) report
> assembles research from 14 leading economists, demographers and other
> scholars, including some, like Marta Tienda of Princeton, who write
> favorably about the impacts of immigration and others who are skeptical of
> its benefits, like George J. Borjas, a Harvard economist. Here's what the
> report says:
>
> "We found little to no negative effects on overall wages and employment of
> native-born workers in the longer term," said Francine D. Blau, an
> economics
> professor at Cornell University who led the group that produced the
> 550-page
> report.
>
> An article posted on Politico (
> http://www.politico.com/story/2017/02/immigration-trump-senate-cotton-234706
> ) included similar opinions:
>
>
> "Economists overwhelmingly think that immigration is good for the economy.
> That's not just true at the high-skilled, but low-skilled level," said
> Jeremy Robbins, the executive director of the Partnership for a New
> American
> Economy, the pro-reform group led by former New York City Mayor Michael
> Bloomberg.
>
> Robbins, who regularly meets with GOP lawmakers, added: "There is
> overwhelming support in Congress for the idea of immigration as an economic
> driver, including in the Republican conference."
>
> Trump's elevation of immigration to the forefront of his agenda probably
> represents a bid to pull public attention away from the recent GOP defeat
> on
> health care. This latest immigration bill's chances are slim in the Senate,
> given that it would require 60 GOP votes to thwart a Democratic filibuster.
> Trump has hammered Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell on Twitter,
> insisting that McConnell abolish the filibuster to better enable the GOP to
> pass its legislative agenda.
>
> -Posted by Emily Wells
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Ethics Group Wants Steve Bannon Investigated for Public Relations
> Relationship
>
>
>
>
> Robert Rosenthal: Investigative Journalism Must Embrace Tech (Audio)
>
>
>
>
> Scheer: 'Fake News' Label Is Used to 'Whitewash American History' (Video)
>
>
>
>
> Attorney General Sessions Threatens to Punish 'Sanctuary Cities'
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Truthdig: Drilling Beneath the Headlines
>
>
>
>
>
> C 2017 Truthdig, LLC. All rights reserved.
>
>
> Signup for Truthdig's newsletter
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> gumgum-verify
>
>
> AdChoices
>
>
>
>
>
>
From: Carl Jarvis <carjar82@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2017 14:50:48 -0700
Subject: Re: [blind-democracy] President Trump Pushes Yet Another
Problematic Immigration Bill
To: blind-democracy@freelists.org
I'm just not getting all of this attention being paid to Donald
Trump's every utterance. My dad, who never strayed from his roots as
a working class man, began as a laborer digging ditches at the
Bremerton Shipyard during the early years of WW II, and at the last of
his working career, was in high demand as a structural Steel
Estimator. Wearing a title, a white shirt, a tie from among those
carefully picked by mother, and only his wits to enable him to
survive, since he was now in the company of men who sneered at any
suggestion that they should Organize. These were those fellows who
yearned to live life in the manner of the boss. They were a surly,
snarly, humorless bunch of grumblers and gripers. They despised the
"blue collar" workers, the guys who laughed and told really bad but
funny jokes, and earned a decent wage with time and a half for
overtime, and annual leave and sick leave and a good retirement. And
all of that because they had the good sense to organize and to believe
that they could live a good, fulfilling life without having to act
like the boss.
Anyway, dad's work took him back and forth from his office, to the job
site, to the boss's office and to "high level" conferences. These
conferences were along the lines of a DMZ, where all guns were left at
the door, and where every company owner in the steel business gathered
to pretend that they were in the company of great genius. I had
the...good fortune to attend a couple of such high level and secret
gatherings. I swear, and I'm not making this up, but I swear that the
room was filled with Donald Trump clones. Seriously! Glad handing
everyone, including me, squinting up in one face after another, giving
toothy grins. And all the time telling every one just how special
this meeting was, and how important that we all work together.
After the conferences dad would usually have to go to the bosses home
for a "debriefing"...a comparison of information and a chance for the
boss to tell someone just what a bunch of crooks and insincere
bastards all the other bosses were. Dad, with a wife and three kids
to provide for, could always side step a bit by saying things like, "I
wouldn't turn my back". Of course dad was including his own boss, but
never said so out loud. These were hard swinging, no holds barred
businessmen, looking at the world as a Plum to be plucked. Getting
ahead meant, to these aggressive fellows, doing anything that would
give them an advantage over all the others. And that is Donald Trump.
Raised to believe that if you want it, be man enough to take
it...whatever you must do to win.
In other words, voters sent to the White House a carbon copy of the
classic Capitalist Corporate Executive Officer. Finally, out of the
closet for the first time, a composite of all the endearing qualities
that have made America's corporations so beloved by the nations of the
world.
And saddest of all is that there are people who honestly believe that
Donald Trump has a heart and a Soul, and that he is really trying to
make life better for the little folks, if only the big bad government
and those Leftists would give him a chance.
There are those who long to see this president impeached. I am not
among that number. Yes, Donald Trump is a loose cannon, yes he loves
the limelight almost as much as he loves Donald Trump, but I can live
with all of that because, in the dark shadows 'neath the dim lit
seller stairs, there lurks a Bogyman, a creature waiting for his turn
to step into the Oval Office and have his turn at sucking the nation's
treasury dry.
And Mike Pence will do it all in the Lord's name!
Carl Jarvis
On 8/4/17, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@optonline.net> wrote:
> One fact: Trump brings in foreign guest labor to do all construction on his
> properties which certainly doesn't provide jobs for Americans.
> Miriam
> Truthdig
> President Trump Pushes Yet Another Problematic Immigration Bill
>
> http://www.truthdig.com/eartotheground/item/trump_pushes_raise_act_20170802/
>
> Posted on Aug 2, 2017
>
> President Trump with Sen. Tom Cotton, R-Ark., left, and Sen. David
> Perdue,
> R-Ga., at the White House on Wednesday, unveiling proposed legislation to
> place new limits on legal immigration. (Evan Vucci / AP)
>
> President Trump on Wednesday endorsed a new GOP Senate bill that would
> slash
> legal immigration levels over a decade, apparently aimed at dramatically
> reducing legal immigration overall. The bill is a modified version of
> legislation (https://www.cotton.senate.gov/?p=press_release&id=765)
> proposed in April, which would have cut immigration in half, and focuses on
> cutting back what is known as "chain migration"-ways of immigrating to the
> U.S. based on family ties.
>
> The new Republican bill, called the RAISE Act (short for Reforming American
> Immigration for Strong Employment Act) is co-authored by Republican Sens.
> Tom Cotton and David Perdue. It would alter the immigration screening
> process to favor English speakers with the purported ability to support
> themselves financially and demonstrate skills that will benefit the
> economy.
> It would also, according to the president, prohibit recently arrived
> green-card holders from receiving welfare. Trump problematically referred
> to
> this as a "merit-based" system on Wednesday.
>
> Writes The Washington Post: (
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2017/08/02/trump-gop-se
> nators-to-introduce-bill-to-slash-legal-immigration-levels/?utm_term=.a00fca
> 832823 )
>
>
> To achieve the reductions and create what they call a "merit-based system,"
> Cotton and Perdue are taking aim at green cards for extended family members
> of U.S. citizens and legal permanent residents, limiting such avenues for
> grown children and siblings. Minor children and spouses would still be
> eligible to apply for green cards.
>
> The senators also propose to end a visa diversity lottery that has awarded
> 50,000 green cards a year, mostly to areas in the world that traditionally
> do not have as many immigrants to the United States, including Africa. And
> the bill caps refugee levels at 50,000 per year.
>
> Trump declares the bill to be the most significant immigration reform in
> half a century. He says that one of the main motivations to pass the bill
> is
> to prevent the displacement of American workers-a claim that's echoed by
> Cotton, who has said that while immigrant rights groups might view the
> current system as a "symbol of American virtue and generosity," he sees it
> "as a symbol we're not committed to working-class Americans and we need to
> change that."
>
> To the contrary, studies suggest (
> https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/22/us/immigrants-arent-taking-americans-jobs
> -new-study-finds.html ) this evaluation is somewhat misleading:
>
>
> The (National Academy of Sciences, Engineering and Medicine) report
> assembles research from 14 leading economists, demographers and other
> scholars, including some, like Marta Tienda of Princeton, who write
> favorably about the impacts of immigration and others who are skeptical of
> its benefits, like George J. Borjas, a Harvard economist. Here's what the
> report says:
>
> "We found little to no negative effects on overall wages and employment of
> native-born workers in the longer term," said Francine D. Blau, an
> economics
> professor at Cornell University who led the group that produced the
> 550-page
> report.
>
> An article posted on Politico (
> http://www.politico.com/story/2017/02/immigration-trump-senate-cotton-234706
> ) included similar opinions:
>
>
> "Economists overwhelmingly think that immigration is good for the economy.
> That's not just true at the high-skilled, but low-skilled level," said
> Jeremy Robbins, the executive director of the Partnership for a New
> American
> Economy, the pro-reform group led by former New York City Mayor Michael
> Bloomberg.
>
> Robbins, who regularly meets with GOP lawmakers, added: "There is
> overwhelming support in Congress for the idea of immigration as an economic
> driver, including in the Republican conference."
>
> Trump's elevation of immigration to the forefront of his agenda probably
> represents a bid to pull public attention away from the recent GOP defeat
> on
> health care. This latest immigration bill's chances are slim in the Senate,
> given that it would require 60 GOP votes to thwart a Democratic filibuster.
> Trump has hammered Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell on Twitter,
> insisting that McConnell abolish the filibuster to better enable the GOP to
> pass its legislative agenda.
>
> -Posted by Emily Wells
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Ethics Group Wants Steve Bannon Investigated for Public Relations
> Relationship
>
>
>
>
> Robert Rosenthal: Investigative Journalism Must Embrace Tech (Audio)
>
>
>
>
> Scheer: 'Fake News' Label Is Used to 'Whitewash American History' (Video)
>
>
>
>
> Attorney General Sessions Threatens to Punish 'Sanctuary Cities'
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Truthdig: Drilling Beneath the Headlines
>
>
>
>
>
> C 2017 Truthdig, LLC. All rights reserved.
>
>
> Signup for Truthdig's newsletter
>
>
>
>
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>
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> AdChoices
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>
>
Thursday, August 3, 2017
[blind-democracy] Re: the gift that keeps on giving
Thursday morning.
This morning when I leaped out of bed...okay, so I crawled to the edge
of my bed and sat in a groggy frump before Mother Nature reminded me
that I really should stagger to the bathroom. The second thing I do
most mornings is to check the temperature, both in and out. Some
folks like to check the time, but I am always interested in knowing
whether to shiver or break out in a sweat. This is one of those
differences between partners that can become an irritant. But even
though she thinks that this compulsion of mine borders on weird, Cathy
tolerates it without a whimper. Although I have overheard her telling
total strangers that the first sound in the morning is that woman
inside the thermometer shouting out the temperature.
But I digress.
What I've been thinking lately is if I could give just one gift to
each of our clients...older blind and low vision folk, I would present
them with the gift of curiosity.
Since our beginning back in 1995, we have provided assistance to well
over 3,000 older men and women, struggling to adjust to a life of low
or no vision. We've noticed that there are some people who seem to
pick up and go forward with their lives, while others mope.
While there are many factors that go into the differences between
them, other health factors probably heads the list, still, the one
difference in all of our clients, no matter the color of their skin,
their economic status, their religion or their place of birth, the one
thing every one of those who succeed, is this sense of curiosity.
Those lacking this sense never make a successful transition. They are
never happy. They often blame everyone from their children, their
spouses, other people or relatives they haven't seen in years, and
even God. They blame God! Naturally, having a dormant "Rescuer"
buried deep down inside me, I rise to the challenge, believing that I
can find a way to insert curiosity into their makeup. At first I
believed I was succeeding. After a visit or two, many clients went
forward and once again involved themselves in living a life filled
with rewarding activities. "Proof", I would gloat, "that we have
given this person a sense of curiosity".
But why then did so many clients fail to rise to this wonderful sense
of curiosity? We said the same words, provided the same services as
we did for those who we counted as success stories. Finally I came to
understand that those people who were successfully taking up their
lives again, already had that curiosity component. What we did was to
help speed up the transition from the sighted world to that one of
blindness. Wandering back through the past 22 years, I can not come
up with a single example of a person who had sunk to the depths of
depression, and our services set in place the curiosity that would
assist them in reaching out and finding new meaning for their lives.
I have to tell you, it is very difficult facing the fact that I am not
a magical God, able to leap tall buildings...and plant the gift of
curiosity in everyone I meet.
Carl Jarvis
On 8/3/17, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@optonline.net> wrote:
> Carl,
>
> Yes, I had understood all of those things about you except, perhaps, the
> importance of your giving up climbing the career ladder, even though you
> have mentioned this in previous posts. You've experienced a lot of growth
> and change, something that most people haven't.
>
> Miriam
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blind-democracy-bounce@freelists.org
> [mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@freelists.org] On Behalf Of Carl Jarvis
> Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2017 1:03 AM
> To: blind-democracy@freelists.org
> Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: (no subject)
>
> Miriam,
> First, thank you for what I am taking as Kind Words. But when I talk about
> changing my beliefs, it's sort of like the Climate Change debate. You need
> to see the 82 year overview to get the sense of what I'm talking about.
> Just viewing me over a couple of years or so is not going to give a true
> picture.
> In my wild roller coaster life, I have been a sneaky chicken liver, a born
> again Bible thumping True Believer, speaking in tongues and being Baptized
> in the Holy Spirit, and after a ten year Religious Adventure I became a
> Backslider. During those first years of entering the Land of the Blind, I
> once again returned to that Missionary fervor, leading the charge against
> oppressive state agencies, and proclaiming Truth as told to us by Jacobus
> tenBroek...and yes, by the great showman himself, Kenneth Jernigan.
> That same absolute certainty that I represented Truth, brought me into Rehab
> work. Really, I set out to turn every new blind person into little carbon
> copies of Kenneth Jernigan.
> And then I went through my Bureaucrat period. I still paid lip service to
> the NFB, but turned my attention on climbing up the ladder of success, at
> least as successful as government agency work is concerned.
> Again, something in me snapped after I became assistant director for field
> services, at the Department of Services for the Blind. I think that was my
> Agnostic equivalent to the Christian's "Come to Jesus"
> experience. For the first time in my life I turned my focus inward.
> It was ugly in there. I had spent a life time avoiding looking inward. And
> it showed. It's taken me about 30 years to get some sense inside my head,
> but I really do alter my opinions and discard old out of date beliefs. And
> yes, I really do enjoy kicking back with friends, and just pass the time in
> idle chatter. I married an introvert. That might sound as if it were not a
> good thing for a full blown extrovert, but Cathy keeps me from jumping off
> the tracks and crashing. We're a good team.
> Did I mention that it reached 90 degrees today? We have so few days, or hot
> spells, that most folks don't own AC. We open all the sliders, crank open
> the windows and plug in two powerful fans. The past couple of days have
> been hot and smokey. A heavy smoke fog that irritates the nose. Up the
> Coast in British Columbia, the world is on fire.
> Since the heat is building from the South, it makes no sense that the heavy
> smoke to our North, would drift down here.
> Having tramped around in the heavy underbrush, over rugged bumpy terrain on
> the western slopes of the Cascades and in the Olympics, I have nothing but
> respect for the young men and women who put their lives on the line to fight
> these monsters. It is hard and dangerous work. Isn't it interesting that
> we don't much care who any of these fire fighters voted for.
>
> Carl Jarvis
>
>
>
>
> On 8/2/17, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@optonline.net> wrote:
>> Carl,
>>
>> If you keep changing your mind, it isn't apparent. I mean, your basic
>> positions seem to remain the same. Maybe you change your mind about
>> whether or not to vote for a Democratic political candidate, and
>> certainly, over many years, you changed the basic philosophical stance
>> you had. But for as long as I've known you on this list, it's been
>> pretty easy to predict what positions you would take. You are very
>> gentle in how you disagree with people so you almost never alienate
>> anyone or make them angry. You don't become emotionally invested in
>> the debates we have which is good for your health and keeps everyone
>> calm, well on this list, anyway. And I guess you enjoy communicating with
>> others, just for the pleasure of communicating.
>> But of course, a lot of people are much more emotionally invested in
>> the debates they have on lists and in the positions they hold.
>>
>> Miriam
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blind-democracy-bounce@freelists.org
>> [mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@freelists.org] On Behalf Of Carl Jarvis
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2017 9:44 PM
>> To: blind-democracy@freelists.org
>> Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: (no subject)
>>
>> True enough, Miriam. I'm guilty as charged, but I don't have an answer.
>> Hopefully I can become better skilled in explaining my opinions and
>> beliefs so I am simply extending my views without offending anyone...did I
>> say that?
>> Maybe what I should be attempting to do is to express my beliefs and
>> opinions in a way to challenge the curiosity of others. Of course
>> that is a most difficult thing to do.
>> We have packed so much emotion onto certain words, it is impossible to
>> use them without bringing down the roof. When I say that I am an
>> Agnostic, even Atheists jump on my back because, "You don't have the
>> backbone to take a stand". When I say that Man Created God to serve
>> Man's purposes, emotions flare.
>> People...many people, do not want their deep beliefs challenged. So
>> they defend by attacking. I spent some effort, even knowing that it
>> was a Fool's Errand, discussing my beliefs with Mostafa. That is,
>> Mostafa sends out his articles, and I respond with my thoughts. He
>> has never replied, but he does continue to keep me on his distribution
>> list. Since I return my opinions to his entire list, I suspect others
>> are reading what I write. But maybe not, since none of them reply.
>> At least not to me.
>> But I think my point is that I do not get my own self emotionally
>> involved.
>> I really do not believe that anything I say to this list is going to
>> make folks sit up and say, "Wow! This Carl Jarvis is sure some great
>> mind!"
>> Since I change my mind, or alter my position on many issues, the more
>> I read and think, I find that I have to go back and see what it was I
>> thought five years ago. Usually it is greatly altered.
>> I just can't understand why folks can't simply say, "Carl, I disagree
>> with your remarks on multipleverses," instead of saying, "Carl, you
>> big dumb piece of Shit! How did your mother ever give birth to such
>> an oversized, inflated ego?"
>>
>> Carl Jarvis
>>
>>
>> On 8/2/17, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@optonline.net> wrote:
>>> Yes, but you do keep posting messages about how misguided people are
>>> who have religious faith. So although you're not addressing anyone
>>> directly, people who are involved in a religion, are hearing over and
>>> over again how misguided they are. Over the last few days since this
>>> subject has come up, I keep thinking about Ted. Remember how angry
>>> and disgruntled he was when he left this list? Some of us, including
>>> me, were having these political arguments with him. Some list members
>>> were much more direct than I even was, attacking his positions very
>>> strongly. Ted had moderate political views, to the right of many of
>>> our's, but not way to the right. He left the list because he felt
>>> attacked and I remember that he said we were all, "leftist Marxists",
>>> which was certainly not the case. But what was obvious was that he
>>> felt alone and attacked on the list. All that arguing certainly
>>> didn't convince him to change his mind. It may have caused him to
>>> shift to the right. But whatever else it did, it caused him to feel
>>> rejected, and I'll never stop regretting what happened and that he left.
>>>
>>> Miriam
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blind-democracy-bounce@freelists.org
>>> [mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@freelists.org] On Behalf Of Carl
>>> Jarvis
>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2017 3:52 PM
>>> To: blind-democracy@freelists.org
>>> Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: (no subject)
>>>
>>> Abby,
>>> As an avowed Agnostic, I neither attempt to convert others, nor fret
>>> if others attempt to convert me.
>>> I mean, how does one convert another person to Nothing? I can see
>>> myself springing out from the doorway, into the face of some
>>> unsuspecting person, shouting, "Agnosticism sure loves you!" and,
>>> "Repent and let Nothing enter your heart!"
>>> Probably not going to convert too many.
>>> But at the same time, assuming some religious zealot leaps into my
>>> space and demands, "Repent and ask Jesus into your heart!" I simply
>>> answer, "I already did that. He entered into my heart months ago,
>>> and I've not seen hide nor hair of Him since."
>>> Yup, Agnosticism is like a big furry wrap around that protects you
>>> from everything and nothing at all.
>>> And it's light weight and never wrinkles!
>>>
>>> Carl Jarvis
>>>
>>> On 8/2/17, Abby Vincent <aevincent@ca.rr.com> wrote:
>>>> Roger,
>>>> I said God wasn't a part of your life. It didn't occur to me that
>>>> that would include unwelcome efforts to convert you. I have the
>>>> same problem. In recent times, my public appearances include a
>>>> wheelchair pusher to get me through malls and grocery stores. More
>>>> than once my assistant has had to answer to those accusing him of
>>>> not being attentive to my spiritual needs.
>>>> Interesting that Jesus told his disciples that blind people are not
>>>> being punished for their sins. I do find myself having much in
>>>> common with atheists, in particular, their wanting to keep religion
>>>> and government out of each other's way. Maybe some day an atheist
>>>> will notice the physical evidence of my spiritual status and welcome
>>>> me to the fold.
>>>> Abby
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Carl Jarvis [mailto:carjar82@gmail.com]
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2017 11:37 PM
>>>> To: blind-democracy@freelists.org
>>>> Cc: Abby Vincent <aevincent@ca.rr.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: (no subject)
>>>>
>>>> Discussing personal beliefs without becoming personally involved is
>>>> tough to do.
>>>> Still, I think most on this list are better at it than when I first
>>>> joined.
>>>> Or maybe it's me who has learned to accept criticism about my
>>>> Beliefs without taking personal affront. And yet, it does seem that
>>>> we all are better at it.
>>>> Each of us are a composite of everything that happened since the day
>>>> we were conceived. Any criticism of any piece of that composite can
>>>> be seen as a personal attack, or it can be taken as an opportunity
>>>> to open a discussion.
>>>> How we approach criticism determines whether it becomes a learning
>>>> experience or a pissing match. Of course we can be shouted down
>>>> with profane curses, but rather than become offended or angered to
>>>> the point of returning the curses in triplicate, good judgement
>>>> should tell us to simply end the contact.
>>>> Furthermore, telling me that I am stupid for believing the lies that
>>>> humans are causing climate change, is not an approach that will sway
>>>> my opinion.
>>>> Do I really care whether some nameless email calls me stupid?
>>>> There's nothing to be learned or discussed here. I'll simply delete
>>>> you and go forward believing my more learned sources of information.
>>>> If I am wrong, the planet will continue as it is. But if I'm right,
>>>> and we are contaminating Earth beyond its ability to cleanse itself,
>>>> then you will be destroyed along with all of us, and your name
>>>> calling will not save one single hair on your head.
>>>> But I digress.
>>>> We can explore ideas and learn from what others believe. Mostafa
>>>> has given me much information, mostly about the sort of person he
>>>> is, but also regarding his Faith. Of course, as an Agnostic, I
>>>> can't really enter into conversation regarding religion, but I certainly
>>>> can learn.
>>>> As a believer that we humans "created" all our multitude of Gods, I
>>>> would be disingenuous if I debated with Mostafa.
>>>> But I do believe it is fair to tell him why I cannot ever embrace
>>>> his "true"
>>>> faith. And I think that mostly, I have done this without putting
>>>> him down.
>>>> I do wonder if Humans can avoid extinction while believing that Our
>>>> God...whichever one we believe in, has absolute truth on his side,
>>>> making all other beliefs evil.
>>>> In my simple minded way, I truly believe that, "United we Stand:
>>>> Divided we fall". We are divided into little nations, each one
>>>> better than all others; little religions, each one better than all
>>>> others; little racial groups, each one better than all others. And
>>>> on and on and on. After thousands of years of this sort of
>>>> nonsense, how can we rise to a higher level, find the similarities
>>>> and teaching Peace and Respect instead of anger and hatred and
>>>> violence?
>>>> Our very existence depends upon our finding a way through to the
>>>> other side.
>>>>
>>>> Carl Jarvis
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 8/1/17, Roger Loran Bailey <dmarc-noreply@freelists.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Ah but Abby, I am an atheist and religion is a part of my life. I
>>>>> would rather it not be, but theists have been beating me over the
>>>>> head with it all of my life. I have been screamed at on the street
>>>>> for going blind because I turned my back on Jesus. I have been
>>>>> followed around and preached at even though I politely told the
>>>>> harasser that I was not interested. For the most part these jerks
>>>>> have been Christian.
>>>>> In fact, I can say that in person no Muslim has ever tried to beat
>>>>> me over the head with his religion. But then, I have not known or
>>>>> encountered very many Muslims and of the few I have encountered I
>>>>> have been able to actually discuss their religion with them without
>>>>> their becoming hysterical like so many Christians have. On line,
>>>>> though, it is a bit different. A few years ago I was browsing Yahoo
>>>>> groups and came across an announce only group about the Quran. I
>>>>> was a bit curious and subscribed. It consisted of a daily quote
>>>>> from the Quran and a commentary on it. After a while my curiosity
>>>>> was satisfied and I unsubscribed. The next day I found myself
>>>>> subscribed again. After several attempts to leave the list I
>>>>> contacted the list owner. I did not hear back until I contacted him
>>>>> several more times.
>>>>> Finally I got a reply telling me that I must remain subscribed
>>>>> because he was trying to save me from the fire. Apparently he meant
>>>>> hell fire. Somehow I finally talked him into letting me go. Does
>>>>> this behavior sound familiar? Well, I am pretty sure that it was
>>>>> not Mustafa unless he uses another Arab pseudonym, but
>>>>> interestingly enough this person was also based in Egypt.
>>>>> With Mustafa doing basically the same thing I think I see a pattern
>>>>> developing. My main beef has always been with Christians, but it is
>>>>> apparent that if I was in a majority Muslim country they would
>>>>> behave the same way the Christians do and perhaps even worse. As
>>>>> much as I would like religion to not be a part of my life it is
>>>>> imposed on me anyway and I got fed up with it many years ago. I do
>>>>> not back down from them though. If they want to make fools of
>>>>> themselves I am glad to help them along. And that is why I have
>>>>> been engaging with Mustafa.
>>>>> I point out his logical fallacies just to point up how foolish he
>>>>> is making himself look. I also point out to him how hypocritical he
>>>>> is being when he complains about others being disrespectful to him.
>>>>> He is encouraging the disrespect by being disrespectful himself.
>>>>> And, by the way, when someone screams at a blind person on the
>>>>> street that god has struck him blind because he turned his back on
>>>>> Jesus then that person will probably experience some amount of
>>>>> disrespect too.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 8/1/2017 6:14 PM, Abby Vincent wrote:
>>>>>> Yes, and that's why I've been silent. My religious beliefs are
>>>>>> part of my identity, my culture. I choose not to defend them or
>>>>>> say why they are reasonable. This is true of other aspects of my
>>>>>> culture.
>>>>>> I once had a working class friend whose parents threw her out of
>>>>>> the house when she turned 18. She was offended by my father
>>>>>> continuing to send me money from beyond the grave.
>>>>>> I find it strange that some of you consider yourselves converts to
>>>>>> atheism. If you don't hold a belief in God, then God isn't a
>>>>>> part of your life, just like Valentines Day isn't a part of mine.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Abby
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: blind-democracy-bounce@freelists.org
>>>>>> [mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@freelists.org] On Behalf Of Bob
>>>>>> Evans
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2017 8:40 AM
>>>>>> To: blind-democracy@freelists.org
>>>>>> Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: [blind-democracy]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I agree with you but I refuse your claim that I am disrespectful
>>>>>> toward Jews and Christians. I criticise ignorance of people not
>>>>>> their beliefs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I hope you get this.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You may add to your suggestions not to assume things about people
>>>>>> we don't know.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 8/1/17, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@optonline.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> Please everybody, take all personal attacks, arguments regarding
>>>>>>> religion, and posts from other lists, off Blind Democracy. I, and
>>>>>>> I'm sure other people, am skipping all emails with the name, Bob
>>>>>>> Evans, or Mustafa, and with any subject lines regarding religion.
>>>>>>> If Mustafa is disrespectful toward Christians and Jews, so are
>>>>>>> our non believing list members who feel impelled to repeat over
>>>>>>> and over again their reasons for thinking that religion is
>>>>>>> nonsense, and that all believers are stupid and ignorant. One's
>>>>>>> religious identity is part of one's personal identity. When, in
>>>>>>> the guise of intellectual discussion, you attack an individual's
>>>>>>> religious belief, it feels to that person like a personal
>>>>>>> attack. For people on the political left, who see themselves as
>>>>>>> defenders of humanity and civil liberties, these attacks on other
>>>>>>> people's beliefs are unforgiveable. And it is unnecessary to
>>>>>>> fight back with stronger or nastier language, when one feels
>>>>>>> attacked.
>>>>>>> That's precisely what Mr. Trump does. Sometimes, silence is the
>>>>>>> better part of valor.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Miriam
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
This morning when I leaped out of bed...okay, so I crawled to the edge
of my bed and sat in a groggy frump before Mother Nature reminded me
that I really should stagger to the bathroom. The second thing I do
most mornings is to check the temperature, both in and out. Some
folks like to check the time, but I am always interested in knowing
whether to shiver or break out in a sweat. This is one of those
differences between partners that can become an irritant. But even
though she thinks that this compulsion of mine borders on weird, Cathy
tolerates it without a whimper. Although I have overheard her telling
total strangers that the first sound in the morning is that woman
inside the thermometer shouting out the temperature.
But I digress.
What I've been thinking lately is if I could give just one gift to
each of our clients...older blind and low vision folk, I would present
them with the gift of curiosity.
Since our beginning back in 1995, we have provided assistance to well
over 3,000 older men and women, struggling to adjust to a life of low
or no vision. We've noticed that there are some people who seem to
pick up and go forward with their lives, while others mope.
While there are many factors that go into the differences between
them, other health factors probably heads the list, still, the one
difference in all of our clients, no matter the color of their skin,
their economic status, their religion or their place of birth, the one
thing every one of those who succeed, is this sense of curiosity.
Those lacking this sense never make a successful transition. They are
never happy. They often blame everyone from their children, their
spouses, other people or relatives they haven't seen in years, and
even God. They blame God! Naturally, having a dormant "Rescuer"
buried deep down inside me, I rise to the challenge, believing that I
can find a way to insert curiosity into their makeup. At first I
believed I was succeeding. After a visit or two, many clients went
forward and once again involved themselves in living a life filled
with rewarding activities. "Proof", I would gloat, "that we have
given this person a sense of curiosity".
But why then did so many clients fail to rise to this wonderful sense
of curiosity? We said the same words, provided the same services as
we did for those who we counted as success stories. Finally I came to
understand that those people who were successfully taking up their
lives again, already had that curiosity component. What we did was to
help speed up the transition from the sighted world to that one of
blindness. Wandering back through the past 22 years, I can not come
up with a single example of a person who had sunk to the depths of
depression, and our services set in place the curiosity that would
assist them in reaching out and finding new meaning for their lives.
I have to tell you, it is very difficult facing the fact that I am not
a magical God, able to leap tall buildings...and plant the gift of
curiosity in everyone I meet.
Carl Jarvis
On 8/3/17, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@optonline.net> wrote:
> Carl,
>
> Yes, I had understood all of those things about you except, perhaps, the
> importance of your giving up climbing the career ladder, even though you
> have mentioned this in previous posts. You've experienced a lot of growth
> and change, something that most people haven't.
>
> Miriam
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blind-democracy-bounce@freelists.org
> [mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@freelists.org] On Behalf Of Carl Jarvis
> Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2017 1:03 AM
> To: blind-democracy@freelists.org
> Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: (no subject)
>
> Miriam,
> First, thank you for what I am taking as Kind Words. But when I talk about
> changing my beliefs, it's sort of like the Climate Change debate. You need
> to see the 82 year overview to get the sense of what I'm talking about.
> Just viewing me over a couple of years or so is not going to give a true
> picture.
> In my wild roller coaster life, I have been a sneaky chicken liver, a born
> again Bible thumping True Believer, speaking in tongues and being Baptized
> in the Holy Spirit, and after a ten year Religious Adventure I became a
> Backslider. During those first years of entering the Land of the Blind, I
> once again returned to that Missionary fervor, leading the charge against
> oppressive state agencies, and proclaiming Truth as told to us by Jacobus
> tenBroek...and yes, by the great showman himself, Kenneth Jernigan.
> That same absolute certainty that I represented Truth, brought me into Rehab
> work. Really, I set out to turn every new blind person into little carbon
> copies of Kenneth Jernigan.
> And then I went through my Bureaucrat period. I still paid lip service to
> the NFB, but turned my attention on climbing up the ladder of success, at
> least as successful as government agency work is concerned.
> Again, something in me snapped after I became assistant director for field
> services, at the Department of Services for the Blind. I think that was my
> Agnostic equivalent to the Christian's "Come to Jesus"
> experience. For the first time in my life I turned my focus inward.
> It was ugly in there. I had spent a life time avoiding looking inward. And
> it showed. It's taken me about 30 years to get some sense inside my head,
> but I really do alter my opinions and discard old out of date beliefs. And
> yes, I really do enjoy kicking back with friends, and just pass the time in
> idle chatter. I married an introvert. That might sound as if it were not a
> good thing for a full blown extrovert, but Cathy keeps me from jumping off
> the tracks and crashing. We're a good team.
> Did I mention that it reached 90 degrees today? We have so few days, or hot
> spells, that most folks don't own AC. We open all the sliders, crank open
> the windows and plug in two powerful fans. The past couple of days have
> been hot and smokey. A heavy smoke fog that irritates the nose. Up the
> Coast in British Columbia, the world is on fire.
> Since the heat is building from the South, it makes no sense that the heavy
> smoke to our North, would drift down here.
> Having tramped around in the heavy underbrush, over rugged bumpy terrain on
> the western slopes of the Cascades and in the Olympics, I have nothing but
> respect for the young men and women who put their lives on the line to fight
> these monsters. It is hard and dangerous work. Isn't it interesting that
> we don't much care who any of these fire fighters voted for.
>
> Carl Jarvis
>
>
>
>
> On 8/2/17, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@optonline.net> wrote:
>> Carl,
>>
>> If you keep changing your mind, it isn't apparent. I mean, your basic
>> positions seem to remain the same. Maybe you change your mind about
>> whether or not to vote for a Democratic political candidate, and
>> certainly, over many years, you changed the basic philosophical stance
>> you had. But for as long as I've known you on this list, it's been
>> pretty easy to predict what positions you would take. You are very
>> gentle in how you disagree with people so you almost never alienate
>> anyone or make them angry. You don't become emotionally invested in
>> the debates we have which is good for your health and keeps everyone
>> calm, well on this list, anyway. And I guess you enjoy communicating with
>> others, just for the pleasure of communicating.
>> But of course, a lot of people are much more emotionally invested in
>> the debates they have on lists and in the positions they hold.
>>
>> Miriam
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blind-democracy-bounce@freelists.org
>> [mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@freelists.org] On Behalf Of Carl Jarvis
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2017 9:44 PM
>> To: blind-democracy@freelists.org
>> Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: (no subject)
>>
>> True enough, Miriam. I'm guilty as charged, but I don't have an answer.
>> Hopefully I can become better skilled in explaining my opinions and
>> beliefs so I am simply extending my views without offending anyone...did I
>> say that?
>> Maybe what I should be attempting to do is to express my beliefs and
>> opinions in a way to challenge the curiosity of others. Of course
>> that is a most difficult thing to do.
>> We have packed so much emotion onto certain words, it is impossible to
>> use them without bringing down the roof. When I say that I am an
>> Agnostic, even Atheists jump on my back because, "You don't have the
>> backbone to take a stand". When I say that Man Created God to serve
>> Man's purposes, emotions flare.
>> People...many people, do not want their deep beliefs challenged. So
>> they defend by attacking. I spent some effort, even knowing that it
>> was a Fool's Errand, discussing my beliefs with Mostafa. That is,
>> Mostafa sends out his articles, and I respond with my thoughts. He
>> has never replied, but he does continue to keep me on his distribution
>> list. Since I return my opinions to his entire list, I suspect others
>> are reading what I write. But maybe not, since none of them reply.
>> At least not to me.
>> But I think my point is that I do not get my own self emotionally
>> involved.
>> I really do not believe that anything I say to this list is going to
>> make folks sit up and say, "Wow! This Carl Jarvis is sure some great
>> mind!"
>> Since I change my mind, or alter my position on many issues, the more
>> I read and think, I find that I have to go back and see what it was I
>> thought five years ago. Usually it is greatly altered.
>> I just can't understand why folks can't simply say, "Carl, I disagree
>> with your remarks on multipleverses," instead of saying, "Carl, you
>> big dumb piece of Shit! How did your mother ever give birth to such
>> an oversized, inflated ego?"
>>
>> Carl Jarvis
>>
>>
>> On 8/2/17, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@optonline.net> wrote:
>>> Yes, but you do keep posting messages about how misguided people are
>>> who have religious faith. So although you're not addressing anyone
>>> directly, people who are involved in a religion, are hearing over and
>>> over again how misguided they are. Over the last few days since this
>>> subject has come up, I keep thinking about Ted. Remember how angry
>>> and disgruntled he was when he left this list? Some of us, including
>>> me, were having these political arguments with him. Some list members
>>> were much more direct than I even was, attacking his positions very
>>> strongly. Ted had moderate political views, to the right of many of
>>> our's, but not way to the right. He left the list because he felt
>>> attacked and I remember that he said we were all, "leftist Marxists",
>>> which was certainly not the case. But what was obvious was that he
>>> felt alone and attacked on the list. All that arguing certainly
>>> didn't convince him to change his mind. It may have caused him to
>>> shift to the right. But whatever else it did, it caused him to feel
>>> rejected, and I'll never stop regretting what happened and that he left.
>>>
>>> Miriam
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blind-democracy-bounce@freelists.org
>>> [mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@freelists.org] On Behalf Of Carl
>>> Jarvis
>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2017 3:52 PM
>>> To: blind-democracy@freelists.org
>>> Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: (no subject)
>>>
>>> Abby,
>>> As an avowed Agnostic, I neither attempt to convert others, nor fret
>>> if others attempt to convert me.
>>> I mean, how does one convert another person to Nothing? I can see
>>> myself springing out from the doorway, into the face of some
>>> unsuspecting person, shouting, "Agnosticism sure loves you!" and,
>>> "Repent and let Nothing enter your heart!"
>>> Probably not going to convert too many.
>>> But at the same time, assuming some religious zealot leaps into my
>>> space and demands, "Repent and ask Jesus into your heart!" I simply
>>> answer, "I already did that. He entered into my heart months ago,
>>> and I've not seen hide nor hair of Him since."
>>> Yup, Agnosticism is like a big furry wrap around that protects you
>>> from everything and nothing at all.
>>> And it's light weight and never wrinkles!
>>>
>>> Carl Jarvis
>>>
>>> On 8/2/17, Abby Vincent <aevincent@ca.rr.com> wrote:
>>>> Roger,
>>>> I said God wasn't a part of your life. It didn't occur to me that
>>>> that would include unwelcome efforts to convert you. I have the
>>>> same problem. In recent times, my public appearances include a
>>>> wheelchair pusher to get me through malls and grocery stores. More
>>>> than once my assistant has had to answer to those accusing him of
>>>> not being attentive to my spiritual needs.
>>>> Interesting that Jesus told his disciples that blind people are not
>>>> being punished for their sins. I do find myself having much in
>>>> common with atheists, in particular, their wanting to keep religion
>>>> and government out of each other's way. Maybe some day an atheist
>>>> will notice the physical evidence of my spiritual status and welcome
>>>> me to the fold.
>>>> Abby
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Carl Jarvis [mailto:carjar82@gmail.com]
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2017 11:37 PM
>>>> To: blind-democracy@freelists.org
>>>> Cc: Abby Vincent <aevincent@ca.rr.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: (no subject)
>>>>
>>>> Discussing personal beliefs without becoming personally involved is
>>>> tough to do.
>>>> Still, I think most on this list are better at it than when I first
>>>> joined.
>>>> Or maybe it's me who has learned to accept criticism about my
>>>> Beliefs without taking personal affront. And yet, it does seem that
>>>> we all are better at it.
>>>> Each of us are a composite of everything that happened since the day
>>>> we were conceived. Any criticism of any piece of that composite can
>>>> be seen as a personal attack, or it can be taken as an opportunity
>>>> to open a discussion.
>>>> How we approach criticism determines whether it becomes a learning
>>>> experience or a pissing match. Of course we can be shouted down
>>>> with profane curses, but rather than become offended or angered to
>>>> the point of returning the curses in triplicate, good judgement
>>>> should tell us to simply end the contact.
>>>> Furthermore, telling me that I am stupid for believing the lies that
>>>> humans are causing climate change, is not an approach that will sway
>>>> my opinion.
>>>> Do I really care whether some nameless email calls me stupid?
>>>> There's nothing to be learned or discussed here. I'll simply delete
>>>> you and go forward believing my more learned sources of information.
>>>> If I am wrong, the planet will continue as it is. But if I'm right,
>>>> and we are contaminating Earth beyond its ability to cleanse itself,
>>>> then you will be destroyed along with all of us, and your name
>>>> calling will not save one single hair on your head.
>>>> But I digress.
>>>> We can explore ideas and learn from what others believe. Mostafa
>>>> has given me much information, mostly about the sort of person he
>>>> is, but also regarding his Faith. Of course, as an Agnostic, I
>>>> can't really enter into conversation regarding religion, but I certainly
>>>> can learn.
>>>> As a believer that we humans "created" all our multitude of Gods, I
>>>> would be disingenuous if I debated with Mostafa.
>>>> But I do believe it is fair to tell him why I cannot ever embrace
>>>> his "true"
>>>> faith. And I think that mostly, I have done this without putting
>>>> him down.
>>>> I do wonder if Humans can avoid extinction while believing that Our
>>>> God...whichever one we believe in, has absolute truth on his side,
>>>> making all other beliefs evil.
>>>> In my simple minded way, I truly believe that, "United we Stand:
>>>> Divided we fall". We are divided into little nations, each one
>>>> better than all others; little religions, each one better than all
>>>> others; little racial groups, each one better than all others. And
>>>> on and on and on. After thousands of years of this sort of
>>>> nonsense, how can we rise to a higher level, find the similarities
>>>> and teaching Peace and Respect instead of anger and hatred and
>>>> violence?
>>>> Our very existence depends upon our finding a way through to the
>>>> other side.
>>>>
>>>> Carl Jarvis
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 8/1/17, Roger Loran Bailey <dmarc-noreply@freelists.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Ah but Abby, I am an atheist and religion is a part of my life. I
>>>>> would rather it not be, but theists have been beating me over the
>>>>> head with it all of my life. I have been screamed at on the street
>>>>> for going blind because I turned my back on Jesus. I have been
>>>>> followed around and preached at even though I politely told the
>>>>> harasser that I was not interested. For the most part these jerks
>>>>> have been Christian.
>>>>> In fact, I can say that in person no Muslim has ever tried to beat
>>>>> me over the head with his religion. But then, I have not known or
>>>>> encountered very many Muslims and of the few I have encountered I
>>>>> have been able to actually discuss their religion with them without
>>>>> their becoming hysterical like so many Christians have. On line,
>>>>> though, it is a bit different. A few years ago I was browsing Yahoo
>>>>> groups and came across an announce only group about the Quran. I
>>>>> was a bit curious and subscribed. It consisted of a daily quote
>>>>> from the Quran and a commentary on it. After a while my curiosity
>>>>> was satisfied and I unsubscribed. The next day I found myself
>>>>> subscribed again. After several attempts to leave the list I
>>>>> contacted the list owner. I did not hear back until I contacted him
>>>>> several more times.
>>>>> Finally I got a reply telling me that I must remain subscribed
>>>>> because he was trying to save me from the fire. Apparently he meant
>>>>> hell fire. Somehow I finally talked him into letting me go. Does
>>>>> this behavior sound familiar? Well, I am pretty sure that it was
>>>>> not Mustafa unless he uses another Arab pseudonym, but
>>>>> interestingly enough this person was also based in Egypt.
>>>>> With Mustafa doing basically the same thing I think I see a pattern
>>>>> developing. My main beef has always been with Christians, but it is
>>>>> apparent that if I was in a majority Muslim country they would
>>>>> behave the same way the Christians do and perhaps even worse. As
>>>>> much as I would like religion to not be a part of my life it is
>>>>> imposed on me anyway and I got fed up with it many years ago. I do
>>>>> not back down from them though. If they want to make fools of
>>>>> themselves I am glad to help them along. And that is why I have
>>>>> been engaging with Mustafa.
>>>>> I point out his logical fallacies just to point up how foolish he
>>>>> is making himself look. I also point out to him how hypocritical he
>>>>> is being when he complains about others being disrespectful to him.
>>>>> He is encouraging the disrespect by being disrespectful himself.
>>>>> And, by the way, when someone screams at a blind person on the
>>>>> street that god has struck him blind because he turned his back on
>>>>> Jesus then that person will probably experience some amount of
>>>>> disrespect too.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 8/1/2017 6:14 PM, Abby Vincent wrote:
>>>>>> Yes, and that's why I've been silent. My religious beliefs are
>>>>>> part of my identity, my culture. I choose not to defend them or
>>>>>> say why they are reasonable. This is true of other aspects of my
>>>>>> culture.
>>>>>> I once had a working class friend whose parents threw her out of
>>>>>> the house when she turned 18. She was offended by my father
>>>>>> continuing to send me money from beyond the grave.
>>>>>> I find it strange that some of you consider yourselves converts to
>>>>>> atheism. If you don't hold a belief in God, then God isn't a
>>>>>> part of your life, just like Valentines Day isn't a part of mine.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Abby
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: blind-democracy-bounce@freelists.org
>>>>>> [mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@freelists.org] On Behalf Of Bob
>>>>>> Evans
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2017 8:40 AM
>>>>>> To: blind-democracy@freelists.org
>>>>>> Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: [blind-democracy]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I agree with you but I refuse your claim that I am disrespectful
>>>>>> toward Jews and Christians. I criticise ignorance of people not
>>>>>> their beliefs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I hope you get this.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You may add to your suggestions not to assume things about people
>>>>>> we don't know.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 8/1/17, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@optonline.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> Please everybody, take all personal attacks, arguments regarding
>>>>>>> religion, and posts from other lists, off Blind Democracy. I, and
>>>>>>> I'm sure other people, am skipping all emails with the name, Bob
>>>>>>> Evans, or Mustafa, and with any subject lines regarding religion.
>>>>>>> If Mustafa is disrespectful toward Christians and Jews, so are
>>>>>>> our non believing list members who feel impelled to repeat over
>>>>>>> and over again their reasons for thinking that religion is
>>>>>>> nonsense, and that all believers are stupid and ignorant. One's
>>>>>>> religious identity is part of one's personal identity. When, in
>>>>>>> the guise of intellectual discussion, you attack an individual's
>>>>>>> religious belief, it feels to that person like a personal
>>>>>>> attack. For people on the political left, who see themselves as
>>>>>>> defenders of humanity and civil liberties, these attacks on other
>>>>>>> people's beliefs are unforgiveable. And it is unnecessary to
>>>>>>> fight back with stronger or nastier language, when one feels
>>>>>>> attacked.
>>>>>>> That's precisely what Mr. Trump does. Sometimes, silence is the
>>>>>>> better part of valor.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Miriam
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
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