It's true that the views held by Pope Francis are held by many
Catholics, as well as by many Christians of all denominations.
In fact, I agree with many of the Pope's social views. Naturally, as
an Agnostic, the Pope and I differ on subjects like God and the
Trinity. And we probably disagree on the subject of original sin.
I'm only suspecting that the Pope believes this, but he's never shared
his thoughts on the subject with me. And I've not been in a Catholic
Church since he became Pope. But I believe in Original Goodness.
While our little new bodies come in all conditions, sizes, colors and
sexes, nonetheless, our little brains are like a clean slate. In the
womb we are sheltered from the prejudices of the world. We are the
product of random selection, one sperm beating all others to meet and
connect with the egg. Outside the birth canal there rages controversy
as to whether we were conceived in Love or not. But where the rubber
meets the road....or more aptly, where the rubber failed, in that
protected environment we are conceived with a clear, blank mind. And
yet, from one end of the world to the other, regardless of our
religious beliefs, or lack thereof, some very basic similarities are
impressed upon our minds. We learn the ways of our people. And these
ways have many similarities around the planet. We care for one
another. We protect one another. We share what we have with one
another. Until all that is corrupted by the overlaying of such things
as government and religion. Under government and religion, we are
"taught" right from wrong, good from evil, our ways v versus their
ways. Government and religion mold us into set patterns and dedicate
themselves to keeping us in line, controlling our minds. And yet,
with all their best efforts and centuries of developing their methods,
some of us manage to sweep clean the garbage, and think and reason for
ourselves. Of course government and religion have special names for
us, because we are threats to their control.
All of this ramble is by way of saying that of course within any
government or religion there will be those who use logic and reason
and teach themselves to be independent thinkers, regardless of what
their government or religion stands for.
Carl Jarvis
On 3/3/15, ted chittenden <tchittenden@cox.net> wrote:
> Let me first say straight up that Pope Francis is expressing views that have
> long been held within the Jesuit community and withwhich I agree.
>
> That said, when I was reading this piece, I thought about a recent piece I
> read from somebody affiliated with the Family Research Council whose name
> escapes me now. The writer wanted to know why Christians were not united in
> following the Focus on the Family way. The answer, of course, is that, with
> the exception of Jesus Christ dying on a crucifix to forgive the sins of
> humanity, the views of Christians run the gamut from those expressed by Dr.
> James Dobson and the American Family Association to those expressed by Pope
> Francis to others both to the left and right of the groups and individuals
> mentioned. Unfortunately, this idea that we agree with each other less than
> we recognize has never really caught on.
> --
> Ted Chittenden
>
> Every story has at least two sides if not more.
> ---- Carl Jarvis <carjar82@gmail.com> wrote:
> This may not fit, but I ran across it while browsing articles sent to
> me by a Catholic friend...or should that be, a Friend who is Catholic?
> Anyway, I'm finding this Pope Francis to be a fresh puff of air in a
> very closed room.
> Carl Jarvis
>
> block quote
> "Using God to cover up injustice is an extremely grave sin". Pope
> Francis issued this stern warning against social injustice, most of
> all the sort caused
> by those who exploit workers, during Mass on Friday morning in the
> chapel at Casa Santa Marta.
> The starting point for the Pontiff's reflection was the prayer recited
> at the opening of the Mass, which asked the Lord "to accompany us on
> this Lenten
> journey, so that our external observance may correspond to a profound
> renewal of the Spirit". That is, he clarified, so that "what we do
> outwardly has
> a correspondence, bears fruit in the Spirit". In other words, "in
> order that the outward observance is not a formality".
> To render his reflection more concrete, Francis gave the example of
> one who practices the Lenten fast, thinking: "Today is Friday, I can't
> eat meat. I'll
> make myself a nice plate of seafood, a nice banquet.... I'm observing
> it, I'm not eating meat". But this way, he added immediately, amounts
> to "sins of
> gluttony". This example is "the distinction between formal and real"
> that is spoken of in the First Reading from the Book of the Prophet
> Isaiah (58:1-9a).
> In this passage, the "people lamented because the Lord did not hear
> their fasts". From his part the Lord reproaches the people, and Pope
> Francis summarized
> His words like this: "On the day of your fast, you conduct your
> business, you torment all your workers. You fast between arguments and
> quarrels, and hit
> with wicked fists". Thus, "this is not fasting, not eating meat but
> then doing all these things: arguing, exploiting the workers", and so
> on.
> Jesus too, Francis added, "condemned this suggestion of piety in the
> Pharisees, in the doctors of the law: outwardly performing many
> observances but without
> truth of heart". The Lord says in fact: "Do not fast any more as you
> did today, change your heart. And what is the fast that I choose?
> Dissolve the chains
> of wickedness, cut the thongs of the yoke, let the oppressed go free
> and break every yoke, share your bread with the hungry, bring the poor
> and the homeless
> into your house, clothe those you see naked, without neglecting your
> kin". This is "doing justice", the Pope said, this "is true fasting,
> which is not
> only external, and outward observance, but a fast that comes from the
> heart".
> The Pontiff then pointed out that in the Tablets there are "the laws
> regarding God and the laws regarding one's neighbour", and how they
> both go together.
> "I cannot say: I fulfil the first three Commandments... and more or
> less the others. No, they are joined: love for God and love for one's
> neighbour are
> joined and if you want to do real, not formal, penance, you must do it
> before God and also with your brother, with your neighbour". It's
> enough to consider
> what the Apostle James said: "You can have so much faith, but faith
> which does no works dies; of what use is it?".
> The same is true for "my Christian life", Francis commented. And those
> who seek to ease their conscience by attesting: 'I'm a serious
> Catholic, Father,
> it's really gratifying.... I always go to Mass, every Sunday, I take
> Communion...". The Pope responded: "Okay. But how is your relationship
> with your employees?
> Do you pay them under the table? Do you pay them a fair wage? Do you
> make contributions for their pension? For their health and social
> security?". Unfortunately,
> he continued, so many "men and women have faith, but split the Tablets
> of the Law: 'Yes, I do this'. -- 'B do you give alms?'. -- 'Yes, I
> always send a check
> to the Church'. -- 'Okay. But at your Church, at your home, with those
> who depend on you, whether they are your children, your grandparents,
> your employees,
> are your generous, are you fair?". Indeed, he stated, you cannot "make
> offerings to the Church on the shoulders of injustice" perpetrated
> against your
> employees. And that is exactly what the Prophet Isaiah sets forth:
> "One who does not do justice with the people who are dependent on him
> is not a good
> Christian". Neither is "one who does not deprive himself of something
> necessary in order to give it to another who is in need".
> Thus "the journey of Lent is twofold: to God and to neighbour". And it
> must be "real, not merely formal". Francis emphasized that Lent is not
> only about
> "not eating meat on Fridays", meaning "doing some little things" while
> one's "selfishness, exploitation of others, ignorance of the poor"
> continue to grow.
> We need to make a quantum leap, considering especially those who have
> less. The Pontiff explained this by asking each faithful: "'How is
> your health, you
> who are a good Christian?'. -- 'Gd, thank God; but also, when I need
> to, I immediately go to the hospital and, since I belong to the public
> health system,
> they see me right away and give me the necessary medicines'. -- 'X's a
> good thing, thank the Lord. But tell me, have you thought about those
> who don't have
> this relationship with the hospital and when they arrive, they have to
> wait six, seven, eight hours?'". This is not an exaggeration, Francis
> confided,
> having heard of a similar experience from a woman who recently waited
> eight hours for an urgent medical visit.
> The Pope's thoughts then went to all the "people who live this way
> here in Rome: children and the elderly who do not have the possibility
> to be seen by
> a doctor". And Lent is the season to think about them and how we can
> help these people: "But Father, there are hospitals". -- "Yes, but you
> have to wait
> eight hours and then they have you return a week later". Instead, he
> indicated, we should be concerned about people in difficulty and ask
> ourselves: "What
> are you doing for those people? What will your Lent be like?". --
> "Thank God I have a family who follows the Commandments, we don't have
> problems...". --
> "But during Lent is there room in your heart for those who haven't
> fulfilled the Commandments? Who have made mistakes and are in
> prison?". -- "Not with
> those people, no...". -- "But if you are not in prison it is because
> the Lord has helped you not to fall. Is there room in your heart for
> inmates? Do you
> pray for them, that the Lord may help them change their life?".
> To conclude, Francis asked the Lord to accompany "our Lenten journey"
> in order that "our external observance may correspond to a profound
> renewal of the
> Spirit".
>
>
> On 3/2/15, Charles Krugman <ckrugman@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> that's a good analysis of the situation and the times when the song was
>> written.
>> Chuck
>>
>> From: R. E. Driscoll Sr
>> Sent: Sunday, March 1, 2015 1:25 PM
>> To: blind-democracy@octothorp.org
>> Subject: Re: The Battle Hymn of the Republic
>>
>> All: Charlie/Miriam:
>> In my opinion. (1) The Battle Hymn of the Republic was a product of the
>> times. It should be remembered in that light. To place our current
>> opinions - which may be different - upon this music and text is a failure
>> upon our part. (2) The preservation of the Union was I believe Mr.
>> Lincoln's primary objective. The legal destruction of slavery was a
>> secondary product. (3) A tertiary product was proof of the stubbornness
>> of
>> mankind.
>> R. E. (Dick) Driscoll, Sr.
>>
>>
>> On 3/1/2015 2:57 PM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
>>
>> Charlie,
>>
>> I understand your feeling. But, of course, the civil war was not fought
>> to
>> free the slaves. It was fought to maintain the control of the federal
>> government over all the states. Remember that Lincoln said that if he had
>> to
>> free all the slaves to do that, he would. But if he had to keep all of
>> them
>> enslaved, he would, because his objective was to maintain the union. You
>> might think of freeing the slaves as war propaganda equivalent to the
>> weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.
>>
>> Miriam
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Blind-Democracy [mailto:blind-democracy-bounces@octothorp.org] On
>> Behalf Of Charles Crawford
>> Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2015 3:15 PM
>> To: 'Blind Democracy Discussion List'
>> Subject: RE: The Battle Hymn of the Republic
>>
>> Hi Miriam and all,
>>
>> Well, I hear you about the singular religious focus of the song and
>> I also hear you about the endless wars, however, in defense of the song,
>> the
>> words quote let us die to make men free end quote are very powerful and
>> noble. Not only that, it was our own civil war from which the song came
>> and
>> so it had to be a real expression of our will to free the slaves and
>> preserve the Union. So despite its faults, I really will always love and
>> cherish the Battle hymn of the Republic.
>>
>> Charlie Crawford.
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Blind-Democracy [mailto:blind-democracy-bounces@octothorp.org] On
>> Behalf Of Miriam Vieni
>> Sent: 28 February 2015 19:07
>> To: 'Blind Democracy Discussion List'
>> Subject: The Battle Hymn of the Republic
>>
>> I'm listening to Prarie Home Companion. For some reason, Kiellor decided
>> to
>> sing it just now with audience participation. Well, I haven't heard it in
>> a
>> long, long time and I never paid attention to it before. What a terrible
>> song! It is moving when the audience joins in with Flory Flory etc. But
>> if
>> you listen to the verses, this is a Christian song, a song that calls
>> Americans to battle, "as He died to make us holy, let us die to make us
>> free". And wwe sang it in schools, at ball games, I don't know, all over
>> the
>> place. And people wonder about our forever war? Look it up, The Battle
>> Hymn
>> of the Republic. It's who we are, unfortunately.
>>
>> Miriam
>>
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>>
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