Some good points, Alice. And I wonder, following the logic in the
Cake Caper, if I sell you a house, does that make me a member of your
family?
carl Jarvis
On 9/9/15, Alice Dampman Humel <alicedh@verizon.net> wrote:
> Well, that is the one point we may diverge on, Carl…I maintain that not all
> religious, devout, pious, call them what you will, people are stupid and,
> conversely, not all atheists, agnostics, are brilliant. There's some of each
> in each.
> I maintain, believe what you want. Go about observing your observances as
> you choose…and if you choose a religion, then more than likely, that choice
> includes observing the way they observe, and if you don't, that's between
> you and your conscience, and you will decide how quiet you keep it. I know
> plenty of Jews who keep kosher homes, but use summer vacations or trips to
> restaurants to indulge in that bacon cheeseburger or the twin lobster
> special. I know plenty of observant Catholics who use birth control, live
> with their lovers, and so on.
> I even find it interesting to discuss, to understand, to be informed about
> the religions of others, what they believe, what they do, why they do it,
> traditions, etc. But when it crosses the line into one religion or
> representative of a religion trying to make me do what his religion
> dictates, then I say no.
> This crap about the United States being a Christian country is utter crap.
> We are supposed to be a nation of religious tolerance, anyone can practice
> his or her religion freely with no strictures imposed upon him by the
> government, unless it involves criminal acts like murder, child abuse,
> theft, whatever, although it seems that some religions manage to get away
> with criminal acts anyway, and no one will bother you. However, the flip
> side of that pertains as well, the religious can not impose his will on the
> rest of society which does not share his religious beliefs and practices.
> That's where it all breaks down for me.
> Not a Christian nation, but a nation that allows the free exercise of
> religious observance by its citizens with no government interference.
> Removing the recitation of the Lord's prayer from public schools? Yes.
> Removing the moment of silence for each kid to reflect, pray, daydream, plan
> an insurrection or a lunchroom prank? Maybe not…having a little quiet time
> is not such a bad idea, united in quiet.
> Taking the reading of the Bible out of the schools? Perhaps rather add
> alternate readings from other holy books as an exercise in cultural
> diversification is maybe a better idea. One day, the Bible, one day the
> Baghavad Gita, one day the Koran, one day Buddha, etc. The world's cultures
> are full of references to these things, literary, artistic, theatrical,
> musical, and if we all grow up ignorant of the reference points, we lose
> much of the aesthetic richness of both our own cultural heritage, flawed
> though it may be, and also that of others.
> I read something recently, it went something like this: If a person who
> sells a same-sex couple a wedding cake can claim he is then part of the
> marriage, how come the person who sells a killer a gun can't be said to be
> part of the murder?
> alice
>
> On Sep 9, 2015, at 1:34 PM, Carl Jarvis <carjar82@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Absolutely right, Alice. And you said it with far more control than
>> I. But you see, the entire premise is built upon one lie after
>> another. I'll pass over my contention that Man...Men, not Women
>> invented God. Let's say He really is here...or out there...or up
>> there. So now Mankind divides into groups, each waving a Holy Book
>> handed down to them by God...or whatever name they call Him.
>> But anyway, the Europeans came bumping their ships against the big
>> piles of land that stood between them and the Spice Center of the
>> world. And there were strange Beings wandering about this huge Land.
>> And suddenly the Europeans God, both Catholic and the many Protestant
>> denominations, called out to them saying, "It is good! This is your
>> Promised Land. Build my temples and worship me forever".
>> And so it came to pass that the Europeans claimed the Land in the name
>> of...no, not in the name of God, but in the name of the Kings of the
>> several nations involved in this Land Grab. Oh sure, they had banners
>> with crosses on them. They built churches and temples and went forth
>> each Sunday Morning to Worship God and thank Him for sharing of His
>> bountiful wealth. But little of what God shared went back to God. It
>> mostly went back to the Kings living far across the ocean. So moving
>> right along, after butchering and raping and enslaving all the folks
>> who had believed they were entitled to live here, the Europeans
>> grabbed and fought among themselves. Finally a bunch of rascals, the
>> equivalent to today's Terrorists, kicked the King of England out of
>> the Land and took over.
>> And even at that, later on this new nation split and fought among its
>> own States over the right of men to own other men and women and little
>> children.
>> And when that war was over the Industrialist went back to enslaving
>> the common people by forcing them to work six and seven days a week,
>> twelve to fourteen hours per day, for barely enough to pay for the
>> rent and food sold to them by their Bosses.
>> And here's the real joke. People today would have us believe that
>> this nation, these United States of America, is a Christian nation.
>> And we call ourselves intelligent?
>>
>> Carl Jarvis
>>
>> On 9/9/15, Alice Dampman Humel <alicedh@verizon.net> wrote:
>>> and this is precisely what they have no right to do…they are free to not
>>> have abortions, to not use burt control, to not have homosexual
>>> relationships, to not shop on whatever holy day their religion binds
>>> them
>>> to, to close their own business on that day if they own a business,
>>> whatever. But they have no right to impose any of that on the rest of us
>>> if
>>> the law says differently, the secularly defined law, not a religious
>>> one…
>>> and this is what I don't quite understand why there's not more
>>> objection,
>>> louder opposition to, this imposition of somebody else's religious laws
>>> on
>>> others. Kim Davis doesn't believe in gay marriage? Fine. Then she
>>> should
>>> not enter into one. But part of her job is to issue marriage licenses,
>>> and
>>> if the law permits gays to marry, or a man to marry a sheep, or a woman
>>> to
>>> marry a tree, then it is up to her to issue the license whether she
>>> likes
>>> the choice of spouse or not…again, to trot out everyone's favorite
>>> yardstick: what if she, in 2015, even in Kentucky, refused to issue a
>>> marriage license to an interracial couple? It's not for her to impose
>>> her
>>> religious views on others, and if she can't overcome herself to uphold
>>> civil
>>> law, then she should find another job.
>>> Alice
>>> On Sep 9, 2015, at 10:58 AM, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@optonline.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> But they've been imposing their will on us, they and the Catholic
>>>> Bishops.
>>>> No federal funds for abortion. And that Supreme Court decision last
>>>> year,
>>>> didn't that have to do with on the job medical insurance benefits for
>>>> birth
>>>> control? And all those state regulations that have eliminated abortion
>>>> clinics and added on requirements for women before they can get their
>>>> abortions?
>>>>
>>>> Miriam
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________
>>>>
>>>> From: blind-democracy-bounce@freelists.org
>>>> [mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@freelists.org] On Behalf Of Alice
>>>> Dampman
>>>> Humel
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 09, 2015 9:25 AM
>>>> To: blind-democracy@freelists.org
>>>> Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Fwd: [act-chat] Oops! National
>>>> Federation
>>>> of
>>>> the Blind Sued for Religious Discrimination by EEOC
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Abdulah and all,
>>>> I get so furious every time I hear yet another story about this
>>>> sniveling
>>>> sack of shit Kim Davis and all her brainwashed evangelical cohorts and
>>>> supporters, including the odious Mike Huckabee.
>>>> They keep yapping about how their religious freedom is being taken
>>>> away.
>>>> And
>>>> no one contradicts them, no one seems to have the balls to say to them,
>>>> "You
>>>> have no idea what the concept of religious freedom even means. You have
>>>> no
>>>> idea whatsoever what it means to have no religious freedom. You are
>>>> free
>>>> to
>>>> unobstructed and unchallenged practice any religion you choose,
>>>> complete
>>>> with whatever demands it makes of you, to comply with all the dicta
>>>> attached
>>>> to that religion, from the standard denominations of the world's
>>>> religions,
>>>> even the wacko sects of those religions, right down to pastafarianism.
>>>> What
>>>> you are not permitted to do is impose those beliefs and their
>>>> restrictions
>>>> on others. We do not live in a theocracy. We are under no obligation to
>>>> observe any religion's laws if we ourselves do not subscribe to that
>>>> religion. And you can't make us, no matter how hard you try to shoehorn
>>>> the
>>>> concept of religious freedom into this form of tyranny, right up there
>>>> with
>>>> fascism of the worst order. The lack of religious freedom means that
>>>> you
>>>> will be thrown in jail for mouthing off about your wacko beliefs and/or
>>>> practicing them. When that happens, then we'll talk about how
>>>> Christians
>>>> are
>>>> being persecuted and you right wing evangelicals are being deprived of
>>>> your
>>>> religious freedom. Bullshit. So until then, shut up and go away."
>>>> Something like that.think I"m ready for prime time yet? :)
>>>> Alice
>>>>
>>>> On Sep 9, 2015, at 3:22 AM, abdulah aga <abdulahhasic@hotmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi
>>>> Hmmmm So it means that USA as capitalism People like more religion
>>>> then money?,
>>>>
>>>> So Saudi Arabia we know is religion country,
>>>>
>>>> but they are work even Fridays,
>>>>
>>>> in Saudi Arabia is Fridays weekend,
>>>>
>>>> So I don't know then what start going on in USA with people:
>>>>
>>>> Maybe they are want to make all USA as Vatican? or what?.
>>>>
>>>> Abdulah Hasic.
>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Frank Ventura
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2015 11:57 PM
>>>> To: blind-democracy@freelists.org
>>>> Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Fwd: [act-chat] Oops! National
>>>> Federation of the Blind Sued for Religious Discrimination by EEOC
>>>>
>>>> I wonder what would happen if people refused to work on religious
>>>> days for Walmart, somehow I dount the EEOC would have the guts to go
>>>> after
>>>> Wallyworld.
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: blind-democracy-bounce@freelists.org
>>>> [mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@freelists.org] On Behalf Of abdulah aga
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2015 4:30 PM
>>>> To: blind-democracy@freelists.org
>>>> Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Fwd: [act-chat] Oops! National
>>>> Federation of the Blind Sued for Religious Discrimination by EEOC
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi
>>>> I don't know where this lead us?
>>>>
>>>> When people start use religion to much as esquse for something then
>>>> is not
>>>> good:
>>>>
>>>> other word that esquse lead us in Couse or some type of mess,
>>>>
>>>> I know how looks like and I past true all this things
>>>>
>>>> So I would like ask smart NFB why they are didn't do sem thinks in
>>>> my case with TX comition for the blind?
>>>> I would like ask smart NFB what would bee hempen if Muslim people
>>>> say we don't work Fridays, because of are religion?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Miriam Vieni
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2015 3:11 PM
>>>> To: blind-democracy@freelists.org
>>>> Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Fwd: [acb-chat] Oops! National
>>>> Federation of the Blind Sued for Religious Discrimination by EEOC
>>>>
>>>> I guess the NFB is a bit narrow in their definition of
>>>> discrimination? They recognize it only when it happens to blind people?
>>>>
>>>> Miriam
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________
>>>>
>>>> From: blind-democracy-bounce@freelists.org
>>>> [mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@freelists.org] On Behalf Of Charles
>>>> Krugman (Redacted sender "ckrugman@sbcglobal.net" for DMARC)
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2015 3:38 PM
>>>> To: blind-democracy@freelists.org
>>>> Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Fwd: [acb-chat] Oops! National
>>>> Federation of the Blind Sued for Religious Discrimination by EEOC
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> and the stupidity award goes to the National Federation of the
>>>> Blind! I wonder whether the NFB membership will be apprized of this.
>>>> Chuck
>>>>
>>>> From: R. E. Driscoll Sr <mailto:llocsirdsr@att.net>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2015 9:39 AM
>>>> To: blind-democracy@freelists.org
>>>> Subject: [blind-democracy] Fwd: [acb-chat] Oops! National Federation
>>>> of the Blind Sued for Religious Discrimination by EEOC
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> All:
>>>> This came in the morning mail. It had rather long "TO and COPY"
>>>> sections which I have deleted... Further details may be found in the
>>>> link.
>>>> R. E. (Dick) Driscoll, Sr.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> National Federation of the Blind Sued for Religious Discrimination
>>>> by EEOC
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Advocacy Group Terminated an Employee because He Would Not Work on
>>>> the Sabbath, Federal Agency Charged
>>>>
>>>> BALTIMORE - The National Federation of the Blind, the largest
>>>> organization of blind and low-vision people in the United States,
>>>> violated
>>>> federal law when it refused to allow an employee to observe his Sabbath
>>>> and
>>>> instead terminated him because of his religion, the U.S. Equal
>>>> Employment
>>>> Opportunity Commission (EEOC) charged in a lawsuit it announced today.
>>>>
>>>> According to the lawsuit, Joseph R. Massey II is a practicing Hebrew
>>>> Pentecostal, a Christian denomination, and abstains from working from
>>>> sunset
>>>> Friday to sunset Saturday based on his sincerely-held religious
>>>> beliefs.
>>>> The National Federation of the Blind hired Massey for a bookkeeping
>>>> position at its Baltimore office in November 2013. In January 2014,
>>>> the
>>>> Federation told Massey he had to work certain Saturdays. Massey
>>>> explained
>>>> he could not work Saturdays due to his religious faith and suggested
>>>> alternatives such as working on Sundays or working late on week nights
>>>> other
>>>> than Fridays. EEOC charged that the Federation refused to provide any
>>>> reasonable accommodation and instead fired Massey because he could not
>>>> work
>>>> Saturdays due to his religious beliefs.
>>>>
>>>> Such alleged conduct violates Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of
>>>> 1964, which prohibits employers from discriminating against individuals
>>>> because of their religion and requires employers to reasonably
>>>> accommodate
>>>> an employee's sincerely-held religious beliefs unless doing so would
>>>> impose
>>>> an undue hardship on the employer. EEOC filed suit (EEOC v. The
>>>> National
>>>> Federation of the Blind, Civil Action No. 1:15-cv-02484-GLR) in U.S.
>>>> District Court for the District of Maryland, Baltimore Division,
>>>> after first attempting to reach a pre-litigation settlement through its
>>>> conciliation process.
>>>>
>>>> "Employees should not have to choose between their jobs and their
>>>> religious convictions when a religious accommodation will not unduly
>>>> burden
>>>> others,"
>>>> said EEOC Philadelphia District Director Spencer H. Lewis, Jr.
>>>>
>>>> EEOC Regional Attorney Debra M. Lawrence added, "Most religious
>>>> accommodations are not unduly costly, such as allowing an employee to
>>>> switch
>>>> his schedule to observe his Sabbath. No employee should be forced to
>>>> choose
>>>> between earning a living and following the dictates of his faith."
>>>>
>>>> EEOC's Philadelphia District Office has jurisdiction over
>>>> Pennsylvania, Maryland, Delaware, West Virginia and parts of New Jersey
>>>> and
>>>> Ohio. Its legal staff also prosecutes discrimination cases arising
>>>> from
>>>> Washington, D.C. and parts of Virginia.
>>>>
>>>> EEOC enforces federal laws prohibiting employment discrimination.
>>>> Further information about the agency is available at its website,
>>>> www.eeoc.gov
>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.eeoc.gov&d=BQMCaQ&c
>>>>
>>>> =cBOA5YEoZuz9KdLvh38YxdrPtfJt83ckXekfBgq5xB0&r=CK8oOj7-JYZnTDmB5orNTVZXar6Nr
>>>>
>>>> snGtGHfQ5m79Do&m=X-azbiIlLDe6yFm40VOo18BkP3dAM0rd0Ra4aH1VCUU&s=r8E7HDDW1tHlr
>>>> NnXx76co9RJpg0MAQYmFeuiHLDXiq8&e=> .
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://www.jdsupra.com/legalnews/national-federation-of-the-blind-sued-36517
>>>> /?utm_source=JD-Supra-eMail-Digests
>>>>
>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.jdsupra.com_legalne
>>>>
>>>> ws_national-2Dfederation-2Dof-2Dthe-2Dblind-2Dsued-2D36517_-3Futm-5Fsource-3
>>>>
>>>> DJD-2DSupra-2DeMail-2DDigests&d=BQMCaQ&c=cBOA5YEoZuz9KdLvh38YxdrPtfJt83ckXek
>>>>
>>>> fBgq5xB0&r=CK8oOj7-JYZnTDmB5orNTVZXar6NrsnGtGHfQ5m79Do&m=X-azbiIlLDe6yFm40VO
>>>>
>>>> o18BkP3dAM0rd0Ra4aH1VCUU&s=2h2gkTHVm-iso4Gw9uPk127o2sQOVIxWkTz82tm4L2k&e=>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> <http://mandrillapp.com/track/open.php?u=30489975&id=ec68daf2a10b47949ad494e
>>>> 7b411a6fc>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________
>>>>
>>>> Avast logo <http://www.avast.com/> This email has been checked for
>>>> viruses by Avast antivirus software.
>>>> www.avast.com <http://www.avast.com/>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
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