Re: Bill Moyer: The Long, Dark Shadow That Plutocracy Casts on American Society

Alice,
Funny you should mention the dull, drab, plodding masses depicted to
be our fate if we turn to a one class society like socialism or
communism.
Can it be that here in our free society that we might be undergoing
constant brainwashing? First, most so called communist and socialist
governments are dictatorships flying under false pretenses. Like our
Plutocracy, still claiming to be a Republic.
Second, why wouldn't we think of a one-class society in the way you
discussed, happy, contented people respecting each others diversity?
But back to those dull, plodding masses we're told we would be, if we
had a "classless" society. Have you wandered through a major American
city's ghetto? That sprawling decaying section, usually the central
district, where residents pay extortion to absentee landlords, fight
for space with the rats and vermin, hide behind boarded up windows for
fear of their lives? Few jobs, no future. Respect for one another or
for the government? How can they have respect when they are forced to
sell their bodies to local predators, or to fight on behalf of the
Empire? An Empire that has them locked out.
Here is where you will find the plodding, hopeless masses, right in
the heart of our great Corporate Capitalistic Empire.

Carl Jarvis



On 12/10/14, Alice Dampman Humel <alicedh@verizon.net> wrote:
> Carl,
> I realize we're getting down into the nitty-gritty, perhaps some might call
> it hair-splitting. But the devil is in the details, as they say, sometimes
> at least. When I hear one class, I have a mental image of drab, gray,
> unyielding, unwavering sameness and monotony. Like you, I'd like to see the
> end of the Ruling Class. But, if, and it's a big, if not insurmountable if,
> we could eliminate the better/worse paradigm and its largely economic
> consequences, think about the real and colorful and, with the right mindset,
> enjoyable diversity among neighborhoods populated by working class, middle
> class, sometimes, IMO, one in the same, ethnic varieties, attitudes, methods
> of celebration and daily life, and so on. Go into one kind of neighborhood,
> and the streets are teeming with music, street food, people greeting each
> other, go into another kind of neighborhood, and things are more sedate, and
> neither is inherently good or bad, it's all according to how each person is
> bent that will determine where he feels most comfortable.
> One global neighborhood, so to speak, where everyone tolerates at the least
> and celebrates and enjoys at the best each other, yes. As long as you can
> assure me that the drabness, the boredom, the drudgery I imagine when I hear
> "one class" isn't part of your dream, then I can hear you say one class and
> not fear for the loss of wonder of diversity.
> Alice
> On Dec 9, 2014, at 8:39 PM, Carl Jarvis <carjar82@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Alice,
>> Absolutely. We can learn to respect one another as equal members of
>> an United Earth. In a One Class System, no one is seen as "better" or
>> Superior to others.
>> Because such a society is so opposed to what we have accepted for
>> thousands of years, folks initial instinct is a negative one, rolling
>> out the road blocks and shouting, "It can't be done!"
>> Instead, try thinking of what we would need to do to make such a
>> complete change in our basic beliefs. Humans created the mess we now
>> live in. We certainly are as bright as those folks. We can change,
>> and we must change if we are to survive as a species.
>>
>> Carl Jarvis
>> On 12/9/14, Alice Dampman Humel <alicedh@verizon.net> wrote:
>>> I still believe that it is possible and even desirable to be and feel
>>> different one from another without feeling superior or inferior to each
>>> other.
>>> On Dec 9, 2014, at 10:28 AM, Carl Jarvis <carjar82@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> "A rose by any other name is still a Rose."
>>>> And a Ruling Class by any other name is still the Master.
>>>> It's the formula that is wrong. Call it by any name, democracy,
>>>> socialism, communism, dictatorship, republic...and on and on. When we
>>>> tolerate Class Systems, it does not matter under which flag they fly.
>>>> As long as you believe that you are better than me, we will struggle
>>>> against one another. Once we reach a truly civilized place where we
>>>> understand the value of each individual, and the importance of their
>>>> contribution to the well being of all, only then will we find peace
>>>> and prosperity for all people.
>>>> It can happen. We got here, so why not believe we can go another
>>>> direction?
>>>>
>>>> Carl Jarvis
>>>>
>>>> On 12/9/14, joe harcz Comcast <joeharcz@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>>> Don't forget the coups against democratically elected leftists in
>>>>> Chile
>>>>> and
>>>>>
>>>>> Iran either, or for that matter the so-called Western Democracies
>>>>> against
>>>>> the fledgling Soviet Union.
>>>>>
>>>>> Oh and with Cuba whom I'm not a total fan of by the way for a whole
>>>>> lot
>>>>> of
>>>>> reasons the great democratic United States backed gangsters,
>>>>> plutocrats
>>>>> and
>>>>>
>>>>> engaged in assination attempts.
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Miriam Vieni" <miriamvieni@optonline.net>
>>>>> To: "'Blind Democracy Discussion List'"
>>>>> <blind-democracy@octothorp.org>
>>>>> Sent: Monday, December 08, 2014 10:25 PM
>>>>> Subject: RE: Bill Moyer: The Long, Dark Shadow That Plutocracy Casts
>>>>> on
>>>>> American Society
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Having just been reading in great detail about how the U.S. responded
>>>>>> when
>>>>>> Castro came to power in 1959, I want to again point out that U.S.
>>>>>> corporations, U.S. gangsters, and the U.S. government were all bound
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> determined to overthrow a neutral democracy located 90 miles off U.S.
>>>>>> shores. The corporations, the gangsters, and the government, wanted
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> autocracy that allowed all of them to control Cuba, back in power.
>>>>>> The
>>>>>> U.S.
>>>>>> used every device at its disposal to destroy this new democratic
>>>>>> government.
>>>>>> And it has continued to do so. Perhaps you don't know the real
>>>>>> history
>>>>>> because the mainstream media blocks it and you have never chosen to
>>>>>> look
>>>>>> beyond the stories that have been created for public consumption.
>>>>>> Well,
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> just read them again in Stephen Kinzer's book and he's a New York
>>>>>> Times
>>>>>> reporter and the book is on BARD so it isn't a far left publication.
>>>>>> Maybe
>>>>>> you should read it. But my point is, Fidel Castro had no other choice
>>>>>> than
>>>>>> to try to protect his government by imprisoning dissenters because of
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> emnity of his powerful, giant neighbor. And as I mentioned in another
>>>>>> email,
>>>>>> the CIA was able to overthrow an open democratic society in Guatemala
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> few
>>>>>> years previous to Castro's taking power because Guatemala did not
>>>>>> attempt
>>>>>>
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> control dissent and allowed the CIA to organize a coup.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Miriam
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: Blind-Democracy [mailto:blind-democracy-bounces@octothorp.org]
>>>>>> On
>>>>>> Behalf Of ted chittenden
>>>>>> Sent: Monday, December 08, 2014 9:04 PM
>>>>>> To: Blind Democracy Discussion List
>>>>>> Subject: Re: Bill Moyer: The Long, Dark Shadow That Plutocracy Casts
>>>>>> on
>>>>>> American Society
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But Mr. Castro was the leader between 1959 and 2008 when a majority
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> "counterrevolutionaries" were placed in Cuban prisons! And Old Fidel
>>>>>> has
>>>>>> never apologized for his behaviors in this regard.
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Ted Chittenden
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Every story has at least two sides if not more.
>>>>>> ---- Roger Loran Bailey <rogerbailey81@aol.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Fidel holds no political office in Cuba. If you think he does then
>>>>>> what
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> it?
>>>>>> On 12/8/2014 5:33 AM, ted chittenden wrote:
>>>>>>> Roger:
>>>>>>> Your response, particularly your comments about Fidel Castro, proves
>>>>>>> my
>>>>>> point. You basically argue that he 1) is no longer the leader of
>>>>>> Cuba;
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> 2) those who were imprisoned were attempting to sabotage the
>>>>>> revolution
>>>>>> he
>>>>>> was bringing. I submit to you that no human society is better than
>>>>>> how
>>>>>> it
>>>>>> treats its detractors and misfits and those who disagree with its
>>>>>> leaders.
>>>>>> Using that as a yardstick, no country, including the U.S., has ever
>>>>>> been
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> perfect society.
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Ted Chittenden
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Every story has at least two sides if not more.
>>>>>>> ---- Roger Loran Bailey <rogerbailey81@aol.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> As a Marxist I certainly do not downplay the crimes of the great
>>>>>>> betrayer of Marxism, Stalin. And as a Marxist I will point out that
>>>>>>> you are falsely stating that Fidel Castro imprisons anyone because
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> speaking out against him in Cuba. For one thing, Fidel Castro works
>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>> a newspaper columnist now and does not exercise power, much less the
>>>>>>> power to imprison anyone. Furthermore, those who are called
>>>>>>> prisoners
>>>>>>> for speaking out against Castro are actually prisoners for taking
>>>>>>> deliberate sabotage efforts against the revolutionary government.
>>>>>>> Those who want to speak out against that government are simply
>>>>>>> invited
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>> leave.
>>>>>>> On 12/7/2014 11:49 AM, ted chittenden wrote:
>>>>>>>> Miriam:
>>>>>>>> Alice is correct! If you are viewing history through a
>>>>>>>> philosophical
>>>>>> lens, no matter what that lens may be, then you will shortchange
>>>>>> those
>>>>>> historical events that disagree with your theory and highlight those
>>>>>> that
>>>>>>
>>>>>> do
>>>>>> agree with your theory. In Roger's case, he may, because he is a
>>>>>> Marxist,
>>>>>> choose to ignore or downplay events such as Stalin's purges in the
>>>>>> Soviet
>>>>>> Union or Fidel Castro's imprisonments of those who speak out against
>>>>>> him
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> Cuba. On the other hand, many U.S. history books, both past and
>>>>>> present,
>>>>>> downplay or ignore how Caucasians treated native Americans, blacks,
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> other immigrants, because these treatments don't fit in with the
>>>>>> philosophy
>>>>>> of American exceptionalism.
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Ted Chittenden
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Every story has at least two sides if not more.
>>>>>>>> ---- Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@optonline.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Alice,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think there's a difference. People may choose certain facts and
>>>>>>>> ignore others. When they do that, they're distorting history in
>>>>>>>> order to influence the public's perceptions. Roger is talking
>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>> consciously choosing a philosophical framework through which to
>>>>>>>> analyze historical facts. His contention is that the only
>>>>>>>> philosophical framework which will lead to change is Marxist
>>>>>>>> theory.
>>>>>>>> His belief is that if one doesn't adhere to Marxist theory, one
>>>>>>>> can't
>>>>>> innitiate useful change.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Miriam
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> From: Blind-Democracy
>>>>>>>> [mailto:blind-democracy-bounces@octothorp.org]
>>>>>>>> On Behalf Of Alice Dampman Humel
>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2014 5:20 AM
>>>>>>>> To: Blind Democracy Discussion List
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Bill Moyer: The Long, Dark Shadow That Plutocracy
>>>>>>>> Casts
>>>>>>>> on American Society
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Isn't that what we accuse the right-wingers of doing? They choose
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> version of history that serves their causes and their ideology the
>>>>>>>> best.
>>>>>>>> They ignore any facts or versions that contradict their ideology or
>>>>>>>> impede their causes.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Dec 6, 2014, at 8:22 PM, Roger Loran Bailey
>>>>>>>> <Rogerbailey81@aol.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There may be many ways to look at history and economics, but
>>>>>>>> depending on what you want to do with your knowledge of history and
>>>>>>>> economics you have to pick the one that helps your cause the best.
>>>>>>>> On 12/6/2014 4:35 PM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Perhaps another way of putting it is that Marxism is a
>>>>>> framework
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> conceptualizing history and economics. But if someone
>>>>>> insists that
>>>>>>>> it is the
>>>>>>>> one and only way to look at history and economics, than that
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> individual is
>>>>>>>> being dogmatic.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Miriam
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> From: Blind-Democracy
>>>>>>>> [mailto:blind-democracy-bounces@octothorp.org] On
>>>>>>>> Behalf Of Roger Loran Bailey
>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2014 3:26 PM
>>>>>>>> To: Blind Democracy Discussion List
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Bill Moyer: The Long, Dark Shadow That
>>>>>> Plutocracy
>>>>>>>> Casts on
>>>>>>>> American Society
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If you know the first thing about Marxism you know that it
>>>>>> is not
>>>>>>>> dogmatic.
>>>>>>>> If you are one of those people who think Barack Obama is a
>>>>>>>> socialist then
>>>>>>>> you might think it is dogmatic, but then you wouldn't know
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> first thing
>>>>>>>> about it, would you?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 12/6/2014 9:36 AM, Alice Dampman Humel wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Marxism is not a dogmatism?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That's one man's opinion, shared, admittedly, among many,
>>>>>> but also
>>>>>>>> disputed by many. On Dec 4, 2014, at 11:35 PM, Roger Loran
>>>>>> Bailey
>>>>>>>> <Rogerbailey81@aol.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I am not going to go back to find my message either, but I
>>>>>>>> may have said something like that. If I used those exact
>>>>>>>> words I think I can
>>>>>>>> explain what I meant. You said something that was very
>>>>>>>> liberal sounding. I
>>>>>>>> know you do that a lot. I see that as a detrimental ideology
>>>>>>>> and I point out
>>>>>>>> why it is liberal sounding and what is wrong with that. By
>>>>>>>> then, of course,
>>>>>>>> I have launched on a criticism of liberalism and I am not
>>>>>>>> accusing any one
>>>>>>>> person of anything. My position is that liberalism, or more
>>>>>>>> precisely,
>>>>>>>> bourgeois liberalism, is a bourgeois ideology and it
>>>>>>>> represents the
>>>>>>>> interests of the bourgeoisie. I do count myself as a Marxist
>>>>>>>> and so I
>>>>>>>> promote points of view that are in the interests of the
>>>>>>>> working class.
>>>>>>>> Marxism, however, is not a dogmatism. One of its basic
>>>>>>>> premises is that
>>>>>>>> scientific investigation is the only way to determine the
>>>>>>>> nature of reality.
>>>>>>>> That requires the sloughing off of old ideas when
>>>>>>>> discoveries about reality
>>>>>>>> show that the old ideas have been wrong. It is religious
>>>>>>>> faith that insists
>>>>>>>> that the old ideas are the only correct ideas no matter how
>>>>>>>> profoundly they
>>>>>>>> have been proven wrong. Marxism does not, though, view the
>>>>>>>> world from a
>>>>>>>> simple empirical stance that simply describes the world and
>>>>>>>> leaves it at
>>>>>>>> that. It does have a perspective of striving for human
>>>>>>>> liberation. That
>>>>>>>> means that other ideologies, no matter how well they may
>>>>>>>> simply describe the
>>>>>>>> world around us, are there to be defeated if they are
>>>>>>>> detrimental to human
>>>>>>>> liberation.
>>>>>>>> On 12/4/2014 10:59 PM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think, but I'm not going to go back to find the
>>>>>>>> email, that you very
>>>>>>>> specifically said something to the effect of, "now
>>>>>>>> you're sounding like a
>>>>>>>> Liberal and liberals andprogressives act as if they
>>>>>>>> are different from
>>>>>>>> working people and preach to them". So, I certainly
>>>>>>>> think that was a sort
>>>>>>>> of caution to me on your part. And as I've said, I
>>>>>>>> think that these labels
>>>>>>>> are detrimental. I was talking about how you make
>>>>>>>> assumptions about people
>>>>>>>> who define themselves as "liberal" or "progressive"
>>>>>>>> and I think that the
>>>>>>>> assumptions are unfair. I think that you are saying
>>>>>>>> that there is one
>>>>>>>> correct way to think about these issues that we
>>>>>>>> discuss and that correct way
>>>>>>>> is the marxist way. And if I don't consider myself a
>>>>>>>> Marxist and if I don't
>>>>>>>> use Marxist class definitions, than I'm a Liberal or
>>>>>>>> a Progressive and it's
>>>>>>>> wrong to be a Liberal or a Progressive because all
>>>>>>>> Liberals and Progressives
>>>>>>>> feel superior to working people and don't see
>>>>>>>> themselves as having the ssame
>>>>>>>> needs and interests and are feeling and acting
>>>>>>>> superior. That's what I
>>>>>>>> understand you to be saying in what you write. To
>>>>>>>> me, this is like the Born
>>>>>>>> Again Christian gtelling you that you are damned and
>>>>>>>> will go to hell because
>>>>>>>> you're not a believer. It's not literally the ssame
>>>>>>>> thing. I'm using the
>>>>>>>> Evangelical Christian's attitudes toward non
>>>>>>>> Christians as an analogy. There
>>>>>>>> are a lot of differences of opinion among all of us
>>>>>>>> on this list. From what
>>>>>>>> I've read, there are a lot of different marxist
>>>>>>>> groups that disagree with
>>>>>>>> each other about the interpretation of marxist
>>>>>>>> theory as well. Carl talks a
>>>>>>>> lot about how people need to learn how to live
>>>>>>>> peacefully with each other in
>>>>>>>> the world. We need to learn how to argue and
>>>>>>>> discuss, but continue to
>>>>>>>> respect each other's differences on this list.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Miriam
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: Blind-Democracy
>>>>>>>> [mailto:blind-democracy-bounces@octothorp.org] On
>>>>>>>> Behalf Of Roger Loran Bailey
>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2014 10:11 PM
>>>>>>>> To: Blind Democracy Discussion List
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Bill Moyer: The Long, Dark Shadow That
>>>>>>>> Plutocracy Casts on
>>>>>>>> American Society
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Again, I was not talking about you or any other
>>>>>>>> individual. I was talking
>>>>>>>> about groups. When I talk about classes I am talking
>>>>>>>> about classes, not the
>>>>>>>> individuals in a class. When I talk about
>>>>>>>> ideologies, whether it is
>>>>>>>> liberalism, fascism, Christianity or any other
>>>>>>>> ideology, I am talking about
>>>>>>>> an ideology. What you might want to do is to engage
>>>>>>>> in some introspection
>>>>>>>> and ask yourself why it is that when I say something
>>>>>>>> about liberals you
>>>>>>>> automatically jump to the conclusion that I am
>>>>>>>> talking about you personally.
>>>>>>>> On 12/4/2014 5:57 PM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> OK. I'm trying to say that whatever name I
>>>>>>>> use to define where I am on
>>>>>>>> the social scale, is snot relevant to how I
>>>>>>>> feel about what is
>>>>>>>> happening to the majority of people in this
>>>>>>>> country economically. I
>>>>>>>> don't care how you label them, working class
>>>>>>>> or whatever, nor is it
>>>>>>>> accurate to state that if I call myself
>>>>>>>> "liberal" or "progressive",
>>>>>>>> I'm seeing myself as separate and superior
>>>>>>>> from other people. That's
>>>>>>>> your perception of people who use that term,
>>>>>>>> and it may be accurate
>>>>>>>> for some people. But it's a stereotype and
>>>>>>>> it's unfair to make
>>>>>>>> generalizations about the attitudes of a
>>>>>>>> whole class of people whom
>>>>>>>> you don't know. It is certainly inaccurate
>>>>>>>> for you to say that if I
>>>>>>>> call myself a Progressive, I feel superior
>>>>>>>> to, and separate from
>>>>>>>> working people and that I feel that I can
>>>>>>>> preach to them. Our
>>>>>>>> politicians are giving the same importance
>>>>>>>> to labels as you and Carl
>>>>>>>> are except that you call everyone working
>>>>>>>> class and they call everyone
>>>>>>>> middle class. My point is, the labels don't
>>>>>>>> matter. What matters is
>>>>>>>> how I think and feel, and what I do. I
>>>>>>>> mentioned those things about my
>>>>>>>> parents' work and the work that I did to
>>>>>>>> illustrate my point that
>>>>>>>> these labels, which seem to have so much
>>>>>>>> importance to you, are just
>>>>>>>> ways of categorizing work and education and
>>>>>>>> income level. I know people
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> who have worked very hard all of their lives and
>>>>>>>> whose incomes are limited,
>>>>>>>> and whose politics are way to the right of mine.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> These people do not identify with working
>>>>>>>> people nor would they join a
>>>>>>>> struggle for workers' rights. If you knocked
>>>>>>>> on their doors and said
>>>>>>>> you were from the Socialist Workers' Party,
>>>>>>>> they'd probably call the
>>>>>>>> cops or the FBI!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Miriam
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: Blind-Democracy
>>>>>>>> [mailto:blind-democracy-bounces@octothorp.org]
>>>>>>>> On Behalf Of Roger Loran Bailey
>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2014 3:02 PM
>>>>>>>> To: Blind Democracy Discussion List
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Bill Moyer: The Long, Dark
>>>>>>>> Shadow That Plutocracy Casts
>>>>>>>> on American Society
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You are replying to a message that I sent,
>>>>>>>> but somehow your reply does
>>>>>>>> not seem relevant to the message. I really
>>>>>>>> do not see what semantics
>>>>>>>> has to do with the fact that a class that is
>>>>>>>> oppressed has to throw
>>>>>>>> off that oppression itself. It remains that
>>>>>>>> liberals who will not dare
>>>>>>>> want anyone to think that they are a part of
>>>>>>>> the working class will
>>>>>>>> not bring about the liberation of the
>>>>>>>> working class by standing on the
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> outside and preaching.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The agitation has to be done by workers
>>>>>>>> alongside their fellow workers.
>>>>>>>> Whatever relevance your parents and their
>>>>>>>> jobs has to this I don't
>>>>>>>> understand.
>>>>>>>> On 12/3/2014 11:23 PM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> To me, this is all symantics and it
>>>>>>>> sounds very much like religious
>>>>>>>> preaching. You are criticizing what
>>>>>>>> I said because I'm not following
>>>>>>>> the Marxist line. Actually, it
>>>>>>>> sounds like what I've read about the
>>>>>>>> struggle sessions held in
>>>>>>>> communities in China. I'm an old retired
>>>>>>>> social worker who had a private
>>>>>>>> practise in international adoptions.
>>>>>>>> My father was a factory worker. My
>>>>>>>> mother worked as a saleswoman in a
>>>>>>>> department store. If you want me to
>>>>>>>> say I'm working class, fine. My
>>>>>>>> point is that your labels don't
>>>>>>>> matter. I know who I am and I'm not
>>>>>>>> changing my personal identity which
>>>>>>>> includes my values and
>>>>>>>> preferences, my formal education,
>>>>>>>> and my self education to fit into
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> someone's socio-political concepts.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Miriam
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: Blind-Democracy
>>>>>>>> [mailto:blind-democracy-bounces@octothorp.org]
>>>>>>>> On Behalf Of Roger Loran Bailey
>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2014
>>>>>>>> 8:57 PM
>>>>>>>> To: Blind Democracy Discussion List
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Bill Moyer: The Long,
>>>>>>>> Dark Shadow That Plutocracy Casts
>>>>>>>> on American Society
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If by progressive you mean liberal
>>>>>>>> you can forget about it. Liberals
>>>>>>>> give a lot of lip service to the
>>>>>>>> struggles of the working class, but
>>>>>>>> they do not want the working class
>>>>>>>> to wake up. To effect in the
>>>>>>>> consciousness of the working class
>>>>>>>> there have to be some successful
>>>>>>>> struggles. You are not going to
>>>>>>>> change minds just by preaching from
>>>>>>>> the outside while disdaining to be
>>>>>>>> thought of as working class
>>>>>>>> yourself. To participate in the
>>>>>>>> changing of the consciousness of the
>>>>>>>> working class you have to be among
>>>>>>>> and a part of the working class
>>>>>>>> and to
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> agitate in that milieu.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 12/3/2014 5:55 PM, Miriam Vieni
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The white folks who are truly blue
>>>>>>>> collar and working class people,
>>>>>>>> at least the ones with whom I have
>>>>>>>> contact, do feel angry. They do
>>>>>>>> feel
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> cheated.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> However, they tend to believe the
>>>>>>>> explanations provided to them by
>>>>>>>> conservative media figures. The very
>>>>>>>> kind lady who cleans my
>>>>>>>> apartment is originally from
>>>>>>>> Croatia, from a peasant background. She
>>>>>>>> reads books by Bill O'Reilly and she
>>>>>>>> quotes him. "The trouble with
>>>>>>>> this country is it's too liberal.
>>>>>>>> Obamacare is too Communist. It's
>>>>>>>> the reason that they're cutting
>>>>>>>> medicare to the bone". When I try to
>>>>>>>> explain where Obamacare came from
>>>>>>>> and that it has nothing to do with
>>>>>>>> medicare, her response is, "Well,
>>>>>>>> that's my opinion". So then do I
>>>>>>>> get into a discussion with her about
>>>>>>>> how her opinion is based on
>>>>>>>> misinformation, not facts? I tried a
>>>>>>>> little, but there's no point.
>>>>>>>> But the right wing propaganda is
>>>>>>>> incredibly strong and it permeates
>>>>>>>> our
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> whole society.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The Left is correct that people are
>>>>>>>> angry and that they're angry
>>>>>>>> because they know they're being
>>>>>>>> short changed. However, who is going
>>>>>>>> to be capable of changing their
>>>>>>>> consciousness? I think that if the
>>>>>>>> Progressive Movements wants to be
>>>>>>>> successful, its members need to
>>>>>>>> stop living in a dream world where
>>>>>>>> they talk to each other about how
>>>>>>>> the public really shares their
>>>>>>>> goals. I think that they need to
>>>>>>>> augment the efforts already being
>>>>>>>> made with fast food and big box
>>>>>>>> store workers, and find ways of
>>>>>>>> reaching all these conservative blue
>>>>>>>> collar
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> people like the majority of the
>>>>>>>> population that lives on Long Island.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Miriam
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: Blind-Democracy
>>>>>>>> [mailto:blind-democracy-bounces@octothorp.org]
>>>>>>>> On Behalf Of ted chittenden
>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2014
>>>>>>>> 3:13 PM
>>>>>>>> To: Blind Democracy Discussion List
>>>>>>>> Subject: RE: Bill Moyer: The Long,
>>>>>>>> Dark Shadow That Plutocracy Casts
>>>>>>>> on American Society
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> To add to Miriam's point: many
>>>>>>>> people in the upper middle class view
>>>>>>>> themselves as either having made it
>>>>>>>> or working their way towards
>>>>>>>> earning more wealth for themselves
>>>>>>>> and their families. They (mostly)
>>>>>>>> view the so-called 1% as being where
>>>>>>>> they themselves would like to be.
>>>>>>>> These people, by and large, do not
>>>>>>>> empathize with the working and
>>>>>>>> non-working poor--they are too
>>>>>>>> immersed in their own lives to notice
>>>>>>>> them
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> much.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And they support the current system.
>>>>>>>> As my mom's youngest surviving
>>>>>>>> brother told one of the other family
>>>>>>>> members within my hearing last
>>>>>>>> Thanksgiving, "It's not having all
>>>>>>>> the stuff at the beginning that's
>>>>>>>> good. It's working to get what you
>>>>>>>> got now that makes what you got
>>>>>>>> now worth it." And that's really how
>>>>>>>> these people believe. And it
>>>>>>>> really doesn't matter if these
>>>>>>>> people have been fed a lie by the
>>>>>>>> upper classes--they continue to
>>>>>>>> believe that lie themselves and
>>>>>>>> continue to feed
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> it down to the classes below them.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And those who point out the lie are
>>>>>>>> shunned and ridiculed for doing
>>>>>>>> just that--most members of the upper
>>>>>>>> middle class just don't believe
>>>>>>>> what the naysayers say to be true!
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Ted Chittenden
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Every
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Blind-Democracy mailing list
>>>>>>>> Blind-Democracy@octothorp.org
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.octothorp.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-democracy
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Blind-Democracy mailing list
>>>>>>>> Blind-Democracy@octothorp.org
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.octothorp.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-democracy
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Blind-Democracy mailing list
>>>>>>>> Blind-Democracy@octothorp.org
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.octothorp.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-democracy
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Blind-Democracy mailing list
>>>>>>>> Blind-Democracy@octothorp.org
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.octothorp.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-democracy
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Blind-Democracy mailing list
>>>>>>>> Blind-Democracy@octothorp.org
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.octothorp.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-democracy
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Blind-Democracy mailing list
>>>>>>>> Blind-Democracy@octothorp.org
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.octothorp.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-democracy
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Blind-Democracy mailing list
>>>>>>>> Blind-Democracy@octothorp.org
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.octothorp.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-democracy
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Blind-Democracy mailing list
>>>>>>>> Blind-Democracy@octothorp.org
>>>>>>>> https://www.octothorp.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-democracy
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Blind-Democracy mailing list
>>>>>>>> Blind-Democracy@octothorp.org
>>>>>>>> https://www.octothorp.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-democracy
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Blind-Democracy mailing list
>>>>>>>> Blind-Democracy@octothorp.org
>>>>>>>> https://www.octothorp.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-democracy
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Blind-Democracy mailing list
>>>>>>>> Blind-Democracy@octothorp.org
>>>>>>>> https://www.octothorp.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-democracy
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Blind-Democracy mailing list
>>>>>>>> Blind-Democracy@octothorp.org
>>>>>>>> https://www.octothorp.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-democracy
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Blind-Democracy mailing list
>>>>>>>> Blind-Democracy@octothorp.org
>>>>>>>> https://www.octothorp.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-democracy
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Blind-Democracy mailing list
>>>>>>> Blind-Democracy@octothorp.org
>>>>>>> https://www.octothorp.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-democracy
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Blind-Democracy mailing list
>>>>>>> Blind-Democracy@octothorp.org
>>>>>>> https://www.octothorp.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-democracy
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Blind-Democracy mailing list
>>>>>> Blind-Democracy@octothorp.org
>>>>>> https://www.octothorp.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-democracy
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Blind-Democracy mailing list
>>>>>> Blind-Democracy@octothorp.org
>>>>>> https://www.octothorp.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-democracy
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Blind-Democracy mailing list
>>>>>> Blind-Democracy@octothorp.org
>>>>>> https://www.octothorp.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-democracy
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Blind-Democracy mailing list
>>>>> Blind-Democracy@octothorp.org
>>>>> https://www.octothorp.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-democracy
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Blind-Democracy mailing list
>>>> Blind-Democracy@octothorp.org
>>>> https://www.octothorp.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-democracy
>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Blind-Democracy mailing list
>> Blind-Democracy@octothorp.org
>> https://www.octothorp.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-democracy
>
>