It's always interesting to see just how blind we are to our own
inconsistencies. The NFB, that organization which promotes independent
travel under existing conditions, using only the long white travel cane and
our wits, the very same organization proclaiming that audible traffic signs
make blind people more dependent upon, and different from, sighted folks,
The very organization that has long proclaimed that with proper attitudes
and training, the average blind person can do the average job in the average
place of business, at their own convention employs the services of "Callers"
to shout out locations to the bustling blind attendees.
To carry this one thought outside the walls of the convention, would this
same organization now promote cities hiring live "Callers" to stand on
street corners and, using a megaphone, holler out the names of the streets
and perhaps some of the store fronts in the immediate area? In fact, I am
willing to set up a program to provide blind people the skills they would
need to become these "callers". Imagine the jobs this will open up. Just
count the number of lighted intersections in the USA, and you'll have an
idea of what we can do to lower that pesky 70% unemployment among the blind.
We most likely will need sighted "callers" at major bus terminals, spotting
and calling out the number and destination of each incoming bus. The list
is endless. Just think of those times you've been in a line wondering if
the folks in front of you have moved ahead, leaving you standing alone while
other customers move around you. A "caller" will solve that little problem.
Buffet lines, airports, expansive lobbies in busy office buildings could all
be potential employers of "callers".
Well, a tip of the hat and a big thank you to the NFB for bravely going
where no blind person has gone before. This is what is called "thinking out
of the box".
Carl Jarvis
----- Original Message -----
From: <ckrugman@sbcglobal.net>
To: "Blind Democracy Discussion List" <blind-democracy@octothorp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2013 11:47 PM
Subject: Re: Signs of the Times
when attending the NFB convention in Detroit a few years ago they used that
method and I thought it was revolting. It was also meaningless because in
the hotel in Detroit where the convention was held they were doing it in an
atrium area and their hollering was carried throughout several levels of the
hotel so their directions in actuality were totally confusing and worthless
for someone who heard them from an upper or lower level. Does this method
really promote independence??? This is almost as bad as my former substance
abuse clients who claimed to have nine months of sobriety when in actuality
they were in a locked residential treatment program or incarcerated so they
were forced to be sober.
Chuck
----- Original Message -----
From: David Chittenden
To: Blind Democracy Discussion List
Sent: Monday, October 08, 2012 4:52 PM
Subject: Re: Signs of the Times
When I attended my last NFB convention in the late 90's as a vendor, I
noticed they had an interesting practice to aid "independent" navigation.
They used what they called, "volunteer callers". A caller stands next to
something and calls out what it is every 15 or so seconds. This way, the
federationist receives a constant audio view of the area. So, when I was in
the general area after the general session ended, I heard, "elevators"
"stairs" restrooms" "outside exit" to aid me with my personal, independent
navigation. At the same time, I had to watch them damn federationists
because the NFB was actively against guide dogs, so many people kept trying
to whack my dog with their canes. It made for a very stressful week. Note:
one federationist who very specifically moved across a wide passageway and
swung very wide to hit my dog got his cane kicked out from his hand and sent
a ways down the passage for his trouble. Yes, karate trained fast front snap
kicks can be most useful. And, as we were the only two people in the
passage, I left a male federationist yelling for his cane to be returned
whilst standing still in the middle of a wide passage.
David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
Email: dchittenden@gmail.com
Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
Sent from my iPhone
On 09/10/2012, at 12:09, Alice Dampman Humel <alicedh@verizon.net> wrote:
but IMO the tactile warnings are indeed quite discreet. They are the
same dimensions as the wide yellow warning strip visible to the sighted, and
the truncated domes as they're called do little more than to add texture to
the color, for the whole strip, including the texture, is painted yellow.
Isn't that less intrusive than something making some noise if a person
gets too close to the edge?
As for the cost of the installation of tactile warnings in the DC
subway, they wanted to use some special ceramic or stoneware tiles, not just
what were called the plastic strips or whatever they are that have been used
everywhere else.I had not read anything about the audible warnings.and why
would the, IMO, far more intrusive audible warnings not be any more "just
for the blind" than would the tactile marks on the floor within the confines
and in the same color as the visible warnings for the sighted?
On Oct 8, 2012, at 5:17 PM, David Chittenden <dchittenden@gmail.com>
wrote:
Yes, and the subway issue is because NFB was pushing a high-tech
solution which would make directed audible tones at the person who crossed
the line before the train pulled in to the station. This all actually fits
in with NFB philosophy. Tactile warnings really stand out and make it
obvious that they are just for the blind. Any solution which is less
noticeable is, of course, automatically preferred by NFB philosophy. So,
what about the high-tech solution? It would have cost over a million dollars
per station, and was never able to develop the fine sound directional
control that was necessary, so experimentation on it was quietly dropped
several years ago.
David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
Email: dchittenden@gmail.com
Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
Sent from my iPhone
On 09/10/2012, at 5:30, Alice Dampman Humel <alicedh@verizon.net>
wrote:
speaking of truncated domes...did you read the article about the
detectable warnings in the DC subway?
Not even in the federal city.and, if I read the article right, they
were claiming that putting detectable warnings into even some of the
stations would cost millions of dollars..turns out, they want to use some
really fancy-schmancy system, not the materials that have been used in other
cities for, I believe, a hell of a lot less money.
That's probably not the federal highway department, but.
and there's a problem, too.what do they do on federal, state,
county, local, roads?
It's a mess.
But no big government, oh, no, not that.because then, there just
might be some uniformity and the world might make a lot more sense to all,
particularly the disabled.that was one of the things the woman quoted in the
article said.the biggest problem is that there's no consistency. There are
detectable warnings in some stations, but not others, so which station am I
in? Am I going to teeter off the edge without ever hitting a detectable
warning, or am I safely standing three feet away? And of course, the NFB
argues that if you're a competent traveler, you don't need the detectable
warnings. Yeah, right. It's exactly the same information the sighted
traveler gets by seeing that bright yellow strip.all it does is put the
yellow line into accessible format, and even still, the sighted person sees
it a hell of a lot sooner than we feel it with cane, foot or dog.
Alice
On Oct 8, 2012, at 11:07 AM, joe harcz Comcast
<joeharcz@comcast.net> wrote:
You have some good points here Ted.
Now this goes to something we agree with and that is enforcement
of laws like Section 504 and 508.
In those regards the NFB has been quite good nationally and also
ACB in targetting universities, and particuarlly the feds in only purchasing
accessible products like book readers, etc.
This is indeed the way to push companies to do what Apple did....
If especially the federal government 508 procuremennt standards
were met and enforced all would indeed be fully accessable by now just as if
the ADA were enforced there would be compliant curb cuts on every corner by
now for WC users and, by the way with Federal Highway Administration
required truncated domes.
Regardless it has been my contention that access is indeed a civil
right, the laws are there and if followed and the private sector was hit in
the pocket book then all would be compliant.
But Hell I can't even get fully accessable documents from the U.S.
Department of Civil Rights at Ed. Man, what do we do when the enforcers of
these lawsnot only don't enforce them but also violate them themselves?
Sorry for the digression only slightly, but I agree Ted with this
and always have so.
----- Original Message ----- From: "ted chittenden"
<tchittenden@cox.net>
To: "Blind Democracy Discussion List"
<blind-democracy@octothorp.org>
Sent: Monday, October 08, 2012 10:47 AM
Subject: Re: Signs of the Times
While David C. took the opportunity to vote with his wallet, it
should be noted that he couldn't actually do so until 2007 or so when Apple
introduced its speech access technology. Prior to that, Microsoft was the
only game in town as OutSpoken, the private company that was providing voice
for the Macs, had not been updated since 2001 or so. And Apple's making its
products more accessible was not a charitable choice or even a decision by
good people to think in the long term; rather it was a response to U.S.
Federal laws that required that any computer program or software that was
sold to the U.S. government had to be accessible to its blind employees.
And tying this nicely into politics, if Mr. Romney was to be
elected U.S. President, I am sure that he would seek to relax these
requirements.
--
Ted Chittenden
Every story has at least two sides if not more.
---- David Chittenden <dchittenden@gmail.com> wrote:
Yep, so I voted with my wallet rather than just complaining
about how unfair it is.
David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
Email: dchittenden@gmail.com
Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
Sent from my iPhone
On 08/10/2012, at 14:18, Miriam Vieni
<miriamvieni@optonline.net> wrote:
But the discussion started with Frank's original statement to
the effect
that in 2000 when Microsoft was willing to build in
accessibility to
Windows, NFB used its influence to prevent this. And I said,
if this is
true, the blind people who are angry at Freedom Scientific
because of the
cost of its product, should be angry at NFB. And what in the
world would
NFB's motive be unless it, or its influential members would
pfofit
financially from having to have a separate accessibility
company?
Miriam
________________________________
From: blind-democracy-bounces@octothorp.org
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounces@octothorp.org] On Behalf Of
David Chittenden
Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2012 7:23 PM
To: Blind Democracy Discussion List
Subject: Re: Signs of the Times
Which is why I have switched to the only consumer electronics
company which
has truly adopted accessibility into its core model. I am, of
course,
speaking about Apple. I just upgraded my Mac's OS to Mountain
Lion for
$29.99. This included a free upgrade of Voice-Over, Mac's
built-in screen
reader. Though the command set is quite different from the
Windows screen
readers, I have become use to it now. It is as powerful as
Jaws. It is very
customisable. Like any other screen reader, it does not work
with all
programs, but it is quite customisable. It works with the
trackpad on my
MacBook Air. And, many of the iPhone gesture commands work
using the
touchpad. Oh, and it works quite well with my braille display,
which is also
extremely customisable.
David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
Email: dchittenden@gmail.com
Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
Sent from my iPhone
On 08/10/2012, at 12:03, Frank Ventura
<frank.ventura@littlebreezes.com>
wrote:
Miriam, I think that is misplaced anger. AT companies like
FS have
the same operating costss as any other company. That is not
too say I don't
feel the pain as well. Since I work in the AT arena I need to
keep up with
the latest developments myself. I personally own 4 JFW
licenses which I keep
up to date, likewise with other screen readers, magnifiers,
OCR programs,
etc. Thats a lot to keep up with each year and it doesn't even
scratch the
surface of all the hardware to keep on. It adds up to well
into five figures
each year for me so I am no stranger to what those folks feel
when you say
they are angry. But, shouldn't that anger be directed towards
the general in
accessibility we face and not the vendors who are tackling the
issue?
Speaking of AT, I have beengetting alot of work with
deaf-blind clients so
it looks like I may need a deaf-blind communicator and/or
braille display.
All of a sidden all those JFW, Windoweyes, Magic, Zoomtext,
Kurzweil,
Openbook, etc upgrades don't look so bad (grin).
Sorry about the spelling and composition. This flu is really
got me
run down today.
Frank Ventura
Email: frank.ventura@littlebreezes.com
Voicemail: 781 492-4262
Imessage: frankmventura@mac.com
*Sent from my Mac Book Air*
On Oct 7, 2012, at 11:35 AM, Miriam Vieni
<miriamvieni@optonline.net> wrote:
Frank,
People express anger at Freedom Scientific because of
the
cost of the
product. Actually, if you keep up to date on their
SMA's, it
averages $60 a
year. But if you fall behind and have to pay for a new
version of Jaws, it's
a lot of money.
Miriam
________________________________
From: blind-democracy-bounces@octothorp.org
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounces@octothorp.org] On Behalf
Of
Frank Ventura
Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2012 10:37 AM
To: Blind Democracy Discussion List
Subject: Re: Signs of the Times
Miriam, I never really have been put off by Freedom
Scientific. Actually,
what they come up with mostly impresses me given the
task.
Now, the NFB ...
you know where I stand on that one.
Frank Ventura
Email: frank.ventura@littlebreezes.com
Voicemail: 781 492-4262
Imessage: frankmventura@mac.com
*Sent from my Mac Book Air*
On Oct 7, 2012, at 10:22 AM, Miriam Vieni
<miriamvieni@optonline.net> wrote:
Frank,
If it were known that NFB is responsible for
people
having to pay
the high
prices that they do in order to buy Jaws and its
updates, I think
there'd be
a blind uprising. Instead of being so angry at
Freedom Scientific,
people
would be furious at NFB.
Miriam
________________________________
From: blind-democracy-bounces@octothorp.org
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounces@octothorp.org] On
Behalf Of Frank
Ventura
Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2012 8:31 AM
To: Blind Democracy Discussion List
Subject: Re: Signs of the Times
Miriam, I agree with everything said here with
one
little exception.
The NFB
hasn't always fought for accessible technology,
instead what they
fought for
was the accessible technology (AT) industry. This
came to a head
when
Microsoft was preparing to launch Windows 2000.
That
was the first
version
of Windows NT that was marketed directly to the
general public.
Microsoft
was all ready to have a fully functional built in
screen reader.
When this
came to light the NFB got their 'nads in an
uproar
and sent their
usual cast
of bully boys to protect the AT vendors. As a
result
Windows NT, and
all
subsequent versions of the Windows NT operating
system were
essentially
inaccessible to the blind without the addition of
a
third party
screen
reader. They took a very similar stance in the
mid
2000's with
Apple's
Macintosh line of computers. However that time
they
telegraphed
their punch
and the reaction of the blindness community
caused
them to retreat.
I think
I even remember publishingthem a semi-retraction
in
the Braille
Monitor.
Other then that I completely agree with what you
said, especially
about the
parts about the adventitiously blind and the less
tech savy blind.
Frank Ventura
Email: frank.ventura@littlebreezes.com
Voicemail: 781 492-4262
Imessage: frankmventura@mac.com
*Sent from my Mac Book Air*
On Oct 6, 2012, at 10:02 AM, Miriam Vieni
<miriamvieni@optonline.net> wrote:
NFB has always fought for access when it
comes
to computer
technology,
websites, etc. On one level, this is
somehwat
elitest because
it is
the well
educated, high functioning, usually
employed
people, blind
from
infancy or
an early age, for whom these are issues.
The
people who
become blind
late in
life, the less capable, the unemployed,
the
less affluent,
these
folks
aren't able to use computers for one
reason or
another. But
NFB has
not
fought for audible trafic signals or
safety
precautions in
our
public
transportation systems. They have fought
against audio
description
and
accessible money. In other words, they
have
been opposed to
any
accomodations in the environment that show
visible
recognition that
blindness is a disability and that
accomodation should be
made for
it. They
assert that every blind person can
function
llike a sighted
person
if he or
she receives adequate training. This
denies
individual
differences
and, as
far as I'm concerned, it denies the
reality of
most blind
people's
lives. I
don't deny the capabilities and level of
competence of many
blind
people,
but I don't think that this should be used
as
a reason for
denying
essential
assistance to the majority.
Miriam
________________________________
From:
blind-democracy-bounces@octothorp.org
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounces@octothorp.org]
On Behalf Of
joe
harcz
Comcast
Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2012 8:04 AM
To: Blind Democracy Discussion List
Subject: Re: Signs of the Times
While this would certainly work Dick there
is
no cause in my
opinion
for
doing so. Now, again, I'm currently a
member
of NFB and I
have now
and
always have had issues with NFB being
directly
in the Rehab
business. The
issue I have with it is not illegality, or
even philosophy.
It is
the fact
that whenever any advocy org gets involved
in
direct delivery
of
services
then it tends more often than not to be
co-oppted.
I've seen this as well with Centers for
Independent Living.
So it's
not just
an NFB thing for sure. In fact my local
CIL
which is
retaliating
against me
for exposing major ADA/504 violations by
the
City of Flint
that they
are
cozy with through CDBG funds and other
issues
is virtuallya
component of our
VR system here.
As such they are totally conflicted in
reforming it too and
going
after the
illegal instances recently by the Governor
on
both our
general VR
agency and
the Michigan Commission for the Blind.
Simply these organizations are getting in
to
areas they don't
belong
and
don't wish to bite the hand that feeds
them
because they
don't wish
to lose
money and jobs, mostly for higher ups.
Consumers, who should
be the
main
focus be damned.
Beleive me though I'm trying to get on the
board of our local
CIL!
Finally though as stated before NFB
nationally
has
substantially
changed I
think organiationally on ADA and access
issues. Note suits
and other
actions
related to Target, inaccessable e-book
readers, kiosks, etc.
Those things I do suppport just as I
openly
supported the
Treasury
and SSA
suits from ACB for both serve the
interests,
the civil rights
interests of
all blind folks and not just some narro
membership, or
leadership
pool.
----- Original Message -----
From: R. E. Driscoll Sr
<mailto:llocsirdsr@att.net>
To: Blind Democracy Discussion List
<mailto:blind-democracy@octothorp.org>
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2012 5:34
PM
Subject: Re: Signs of the Times
All:
As an outsider the easiest way to
destroy or debase
NFB would
be to
force it to divest itself of its many
money
making facilities
and
drop its
charitable tax status.
R. E. (Dick) Driscoll, Sr.
On 10/5/2012 9:28 AM, Miriam Vieni
wrote:
Carl,
Without knowing all the
inside
details, it is
my
impression
that in New
York, the NFB has been
attempting to take
control of
the
blindness system
and to change the ways in
which
the private
agencies
function. Up until now,
it is the large private
agencies that have
provided
most of
the services in
the downstate area. ACB has
supported the
private
agencies
and fought
against an NFB takeover.
They
do not want the
NFB
rehab
philosophy to be
instituted here.
Furthermore,
ACB and the
agencies
have
fought for safety
precautions on subway and
elevated rapid
transit as
well as
audible traffic
signals while NFB has been
strongly opposed to
these
measures. When David
paterson became Lieutenant
Governmor and then
Governor, he
was courted by
NFB and it looked as if
they
would win the
battle.
But his
political
influence waned, as did
their's.
Miriam
________________________________
From:
blind-democracy-bounces@octothorp.org
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounces@octothorp.org]
On
Behalf Of
Carl Jarvis
Sent: Thursday, October 04,
2012 11:49 PM
To: Blind Democracy
Discussion
List
Subject: Re: Signs of the
Times
Mal and Gary,
There's a fellow living in
Texas, a member of
the
NFB, whom
I hold in high
regard. Mark Noble is a
former
chair of the
Washington
State Rehabilitation
Council for the Department
of
Services for the
Blind.
I
served with the
likes of Mark, Dan Frye and
Noel Nightingale.
Another
Federationist,
serving on that committee,
whose name is
known
around the
nation is Mike
Freeman.
I count all of these people
as
personal
friends and
have
great respect for
them. During my time on
the
SRC, Dan Frye
Mark Noble
and I
were appointed
to review the Orientation
and
Training Center
and
recommend
any changes we
felt would strengthen the
program.
Our organizational
affiliation
never got
between us
and the
work at hand.
We produced a strong set of
recommendations
and they
were
approved by the
full Council and issued to
the
OTC for
implementation.
This personal association
does
not change my
opinion
that
the NFB has
morphed over the years into
a
national agency
for the
blind,
and the ACB
remains the only
nation-wide
membership
organization.
Carl Jarvis
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