did man create a god or a monster?

Roger, you are fortunate that you came to hold your understanding regarding religion without having to have travelled the long road of misguided beliefs. 

For myself, I do not apologize for how I viewed God during much of my life.  I was raised on Fairy Tales.  Both Fairy Tales of secular nature and Fairy Tales straight out of the Bible. 

I was never afraid of the Big Bad Wolf, understanding that he was just made up, but I feared the Wrath of God Almighty because people I trusted and looked up to believed it. 

In church I saw my various grade school teachers, singing and praising the Lord.  I heard kindly men on the radio when I visited my grandma.  While my dad spoke openly of his disbelief, my mother dressed us and sent us to Sunday School.  She seldom went to church, but never spoke against religion until well into her 70's. 

Balance against that the fact that we received virtually no science lessons in school.  I had what was classified as science in grade school, but I did not have one single science class during my high school years.  I never cut up a frog, or studied the mating habits of angle worms.  I can't even tell you how I managed to get into college without something that passed for science.  But I did. 

But even though I began having difficulties explaining the world through my Faith in God, it still took years of bending this way and that until I finally awoke.  Religious Faith is very cunning.  It plays upon our lack of knowledge.  It creates fear over the unknown.  It is the "what if's" that keep us tied to the fear that there just might be a Hell waiting for Sinners and nonbelievers. 

Religion does all it can do to squelch objectivity. 

Think of being raised believing that your mother is the greatest cook in the world.  Your dad tells you.  Your entire family tells you.  And there is all that good food as proof that it is true.  Why in Earth would you begin to pick apart Mother's cooking, examining it under the cold light of science?  Just accept it and go along eating happily.  So folks continue to munch down on religion, and close their minds to troubling tidbits. 

Besides, there is such comfort wrapping ourselves in our Make Believe blanket and letting the world go to Hell...just like our Bible tells us it will do. 

Man has created a Monster in his own image and now we are like fish in a net.  Can we find the way out before our Make Believe God takes us down? 

 

Curious Carl

 

 

 

 

 

Roseanne Barr for President?

Subject: Roseanne Barr for President?

Roseanne does what so many of us do, we think with our feelings.  As much as she speaks out on what ails the nation, she knows that no Third Party can beat a stacked deck, so she roots for the lesser of two Evils. 

For the record, I predict that in a very close race, Mitt Romney will claim a "Mandate by the People". 

The stock market will rise briefly.  Liberals will run about babbling like chicken little.  Radicals(like me) will predict a People's Uprising.  Around the world sabers will rattle and threats will be made to the new "Leader of the Free World".  And then after two or three months we'll all go back to fussing about why our government doesn't listen to us and how can so many stupid people get elected. 

 

Curious Carl

 

Why Do Poor White Voters Reject the Democrats? ,

Miriam asks, "It may answer the question as to why they reject the Democrats, but it
doesn't explain why they vote Republican."

Yes, it is strange thinking...if we can call it thinking. 

But then we are funny folk.  As mother used to say, "Everybody is a little queer, except Thee and Me.  And sometimes I wonder about Thee." 

A buddy of mine once told me that he would never drink wine.  "Beer is all I drink because I don't want to become an alcoholic."  Is reasoning?  Look at all the Winos   on Skidroad.  Well, he does have a point.  Did you ever hear of a Beero?

Seriously, it's amazing that folks don't just throw up their hands and walk away from it all.  Well, in fact if we look at the percentages of voters in any given election we find that folks really are walking away.  I don't know if anyone has checked to see if they throw up their hands. 

We are so inundated with misinformation by both major parties that it is impossible to base our decisions on it. 

But the Ruling Class continues to use the same old methods of control.  The ones that ultimately end up in violence and an end to their dominance.  They never learn because they have their hands and noses buried deep into the pockets and purses of their not so loyal subjects. 

Finally we come to where we are today.  Unrest is all around us.  The Working and Lower Classes, and what's left of the so called Middle Class, are fermenting.  Demonstrations will become open hostility.  The Ruling Class will respond with increasing force and destruction of our Constitutional Rights. 

And then the lid will blow off the pot.  The Ruling Class will thrash about until they are beaten into extinction, never understanding that they had the power to have avoided such confrontations.  And the Masses will thrash about in all directions because they were never able to come together and make plans for a better government.  Revolution is a lose lose situation.  But how do we avoid it, or how do we put out clear and honest information, and get people to accept it?  Until we learn how to govern ourselves, we are doomed to repeat history again and again. 

 

Curious Carl

 

 

Chris Hedges: How Our Demented Capitalist System Made America Insane

Subject: Re: Hedges: How Our Demented Capitalist System Made America Insane

I swear, Chris Hedges gets inside my head and steals my thoughts, cleans them up and makes better sense out of them than I do. 

Carl Jarvis

----- Original Message -----

From: Miriam Vieni

To: 'Blind Democracy Discussion List'

Sent: Monday, May 14, 2012 1:09 PM

Subject: Hedges: How Our Demented Capitalist System Made America Insane

Hedges: How Our Demented Capitalist System Made America Insane
By Chris Hedges, Truthdig
Posted on April 30, 2012, Printed on May 14, 2012
http://www.alternet.org/story/155213/hedges%3A_how_our_demented_capitalist_s
ystem_made_america_insane
When civilizations start to die they go insane. Let the ice sheets in the
Arctic melt. Let the temperatures rise. Let the air, soil and water be
poisoned. Let the forests die. Let the seas be emptied of life. Let one
useless war after another be waged. Let the masses be thrust into extreme
poverty and left without jobs while the elites, drunk on hedonism,
accumulate vast fortunes through exploitation, speculation, fraud and theft.
Reality, at the end, gets unplugged. We live in an age when news consists of
Snooki's pregnancy, Hulk Hogan's sex tape and Kim Kardashian's denial that
she is the naked woman cooking eggs in a photo circulating on the Internet.
Politicians, including presidents, appear on late night comedy shows to do
gags and they campaign on issues such as creating a moon colony. "At times
when the page is turning," Louis-Ferdinand Celine wrote in "Castle to
Castle," "when History brings all the nuts together, opens its Epic Dance
Halls! hats and heads in the whirlwind! Panties overboard!"
The quest by a bankrupt elite in the final days of empire to accumulate
greater and greater wealth, as Karl Marx observed, is modern society's
version of primitive fetishism. This quest, as there is less and less to
exploit, leads to mounting repression, increased human suffering, a collapse
of infrastructure and, finally, collective death. It is the self-deluded,
those on Wall Street or among the political elite, those who entertain and
inform us, those who lack the capacity to question the lusts that will
ensure our self-annihilation, who are held up as exemplars of intelligence,
success and progress. The World Health Organization calculates that one in
four people in the United States suffers from chronic anxiety, a mood
disorder or depression-which seems to me to be a normal reaction to our
march toward collective suicide. Welcome to the asylum.
When the most basic elements that sustain life are reduced to a cash
product, life has no intrinsic value. The extinguishing of "primitive"
societies, those that were defined by animism and mysticism, those that
celebrated ambiguity and mystery, those that respected the centrality of the
human imagination, removed the only ideological counterweight to a
self-devouring capitalist ideology. Those who held on to pre-modern beliefs,
such as Native Americans, who structured themselves around a communal life
and self-sacrifice rather than hoarding and wage exploitation, could not be
accommodated within the ethic of capitalist exploitation, the cult of the
self and the lust for imperial expansion. The prosaic was pitted against the
allegorical. And as we race toward the collapse of the planet's ecosystem we
must restore this older vision of life if we are to survive.
The war on the Native Americans, like the wars waged by colonialists around
the globe, was waged to eradicate not only a people but a competing ethic.
The older form of human community was antithetical and hostile to
capitalism, the primacy of the technological state and the demands of
empire. This struggle between belief systems was not lost on Marx. "The
Ethnological Notebooks of Karl Marx" is a series of observations derived
from Marx's reading of works by historians and anthropologists. He took
notes about the traditions, practices, social structure, economic systems
and beliefs of numerous indigenous cultures targeted for destruction. Marx
noted arcane details about the formation of Native American society, but
also that "lands [were] owned by the tribes in common, while tenement-houses
[were] owned jointly by their occupants." He wrote of the Aztecs, "Commune
tenure of lands; Life in large households composed of a number of related
families." He went on, ". reasons for believing they practiced communism in
living in the household." Native Americans, especially the Iroquois,
provided the governing model for the union of the American colonies, and
also proved vital to Marx and Engel's vision of communism.
Marx, though he placed a naive faith in the power of the state to create his
workers' utopia and discounted important social and cultural forces outside
of economics, was acutely aware that something essential to human dignity
and independence had been lost with the destruction of pre-modern societies.
The Iroquois Council of the Gens, where Indians came together to be heard as
ancient Athenians did, was, Marx noted, a "democratic assembly where every
adult male and female member had a voice upon all questions brought before
it." Marx lauded the active participation of women in tribal affairs,
writing, "The women [were] allowed to express their wishes and opinions
through an orator of their own election. Decision given by the Council.
Unanimity was a fundamental law of its action among the Iroquois." European
women on the Continent and in the colonies had no equivalent power.
Rebuilding this older vision of community, one based on cooperation rather
than exploitation, will be as important to our survival as changing our
patterns of consumption, growing food locally and ending our dependence on
fossil fuels. The pre-modern societies of Sitting Bull and Crazy
Horse-although they were not always idyllic and performed acts of cruelty
including the mutilation, torture and execution of captives-did not
subordinate the sacred to the technical. The deities they worshipped were
not outside of or separate from nature.
Seventeenth century European philosophy and the Enlightenment, meanwhile,
exalted the separation of human beings from the natural world, a belief also
embraced by the Bible. The natural world, along with those pre-modern
cultures that lived in harmony with it, was seen by the industrial society
of the Enlightenment as worthy only of exploitation.Descartes argued, for
example, that the fullest exploitation of matter toany use was the duty of
humankind. The wilderness became, in the religious language of the Puritans,
satanic. It had to be Christianized and subdued. The implantation of the
technical order resulted, as Richard Slotkin writes in "Regeneration Through
Violence," in the primacy of "the western man-on-the-make, the speculator,
and the wildcat banker." Davy Crockett and, later, George Armstrong Custer,
Slotkin notes, became "national heroes by defining national aspiration in
terms of so many bears destroyed, so much land preempted, so many trees
hacked down, so many Indians and Mexicans dead in the dust."
The demented project of endless capitalist expansion, profligate
consumption, senseless exploitation and industrial growth is now imploding.
Corporate hustlers are as blind to the ramifications of their
self-destructive fury as were Custer, the gold speculators and the railroad
magnates. They seized Indian land, killed off its inhabitants, slaughtered
the buffalo herds and cut down the forests. Their heirs wage war throughout
the Middle East, pollute the seas and water systems, foul the air and soil
and gamble with commodities as half the globe sinks into abject poverty and
misery. The Book of Revelation defines this single-minded drive for profit
as handing over authority to the "beast."
The conflation of technological advancement with human progress leads to
self-worship. Reason makes possible the calculations, science and
technological advances of industrial civilization, but reason does not
connect us with the forces of life. A society that loses the capacity for
the sacred, that lacks the power of human imagination, that cannot practice
empathy, ultimately ensures its own destruction. The Native Americans
understood there are powers and forces we can never control and must honor.
They knew, as did the ancient Greeks, that hubris is the deadliest curse of
the human race. This is a lesson that we will probably have to learn for
ourselves at the cost of tremendous suffering.
In William Shakespeare's "The Tempest," Prospero is stranded on an island
where he becomes the undisputed lord and master. He enslaves the primitive
"monster" Caliban. He employs the magical sources of power embodied in the
spirit Ariel, who is of fire and air. The forces unleashed in the island's
wilderness, Shakespeare knew, could prompt us to good if we had the capacity
for self-control and reverence. But it also could push us toward monstrous
evil since there are few constraints to thwart plunder, rape, murder, greed
and power. Later, Joseph Conrad, in his portraits of the outposts of empire,
also would expose the same intoxication with barbarity.
The anthropologist Lewis Henry Morgan, who in 1846 was "adopted" by the
Seneca, one of the tribes belonging to the Iroquois confederation, wrote in
"Ancient Society" about social evolution among American Indians. Marx noted
approvingly, in his "Ethnological Notebooks," Morgan's insistence on the
historical and social importance of "imagination, that great faculty so
largely contributing to the elevation of mankind." Imagination, as the
Shakespearean scholar Harold C. Goddard pointed out, "is neither the
language of nature nor the language of man, but both at once, the medium of
communion between the two. ... Imagination is the elemental speech in all
senses, the first and the last, of primitive man and of the poets."
All that concerns itself with beauty and truth, with those forces that have
the power to transform us, is being steadily extinguished by our corporate
state. Art. Education. Literature. Music. Theater. Dance. Poetry.
Philosophy. Religion. Journalism. None of these disciplines are worthy in
the corporate state of support or compensation. These are pursuits that,
even in our universities, are condemned as impractical. But it is only
through the impractical, through that which can empower our imagination,
that we will be rescued as a species. The prosaic world of news events, the
collection of scientific and factual data, stock market statistics and the
sterile recording of deeds as history do not permit us to understand the
elemental speech of imagination. We will never penetrate the mystery of
creation, or the meaning of existence, if we do not recover this older
language. Poetry shows a man his soul, Goddard wrote, "as a looking glass
does his face." And it is our souls that the culture of imperialism,
business and technology seeks to crush.
Walter Benjamin argued that capitalism is not only a formation "conditioned
by religion," but is an "essentially religious phenomenon," albeit one that
no longer seeks to connect humans with the mysterious forces of life.
Capitalism, as Benjamin observed, called on human societies to embark on a
ceaseless and futile quest for money and goods. This quest, he warned,
perpetuates a culture dominated by guilt, a sense of inadequacy and
self-loathing. It enslaves nearly all its adherents through wages,
subservience to the commodity culture and debt peonage. The suffering
visited on Native Americans, once Western expansion was complete, was soon
endured by others, in Cuba, the Philippines, Nicaragua, the Dominican
Republic, Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan. The final chapter of this sad
experiment in human history will see us sacrificed as those on the outer
reaches of empire were sacrificed. There is a kind of justice to this. We
profited as a nation from this demented vision, we remained passive and
silent when we should have denounced the crimes committed in our name, and
now that the game is up we all go down together.
Chris Hedges, a Pulitzer Prize-winning reporter, is a senior fellow at the
Nation Institute. He writes a regular column for TruthDig every Monday. His
latest book is Empire of Illusion: The End of Literacy and the Triumph of
Spectacle.
C 2012 Truthdig All rights reserved.
View this story online at: http://www.alternet.org/story/155213/

Hedges: How Our Demented Capitalist System Made America Insane
By Chris Hedges, Truthdig
Posted on April 30, 2012, Printed on May 14, 2012
http://www.alternet.org/story/155213/hedges%3A_how_our_demented_capitalist_s
ystem_made_america_insane

 When civilizations start to die they go insane. Let the ice sheets in the
Arctic melt. Let the temperatures rise. Let the air, soil and water be
poisoned. Let the forests die. Let the seas be emptied of life. Let one
useless war after another be waged. Let the masses be thrust into extreme
poverty and left without jobs while the elites, drunk on hedonism,
accumulate vast fortunes through exploitation, speculation, fraud and theft.
Reality, at the end, gets unplugged. We live in an age when news consists of
Snooki's pregnancy, Hulk Hogan's sex tape and Kim Kardashian's denial that
she is the naked woman cooking eggs in a photo circulating on the Internet.
Politicians, including presidents, appear on late night comedy shows to do
gags and they campaign on issues such as creating a moon colony. "At times
when the page is turning," Louis-Ferdinand Celine wrote in "Castle to
Castle," "when History brings all the nuts together, opens its Epic Dance
Halls! hats and heads in the whirlwind! Panties overboard!"

The quest by a bankrupt elite in the final days of empire to accumulate
greater and greater wealth, as Karl Marx observed, is modern society's
version of primitive fetishism. This quest, as there is less and less to
exploit, leads to mounting repression, increased human suffering, a collapse
of infrastructure and, finally, collective death. It is the self-deluded,
those on Wall Street or among the political elite, those who entertain and
inform us, those who lack the capacity to question the lusts that will
ensure our self-annihilation, who are held up as exemplars of intelligence,
success and progress. The World Health Organization calculates that one in
four people in the United States suffers from chronic anxiety, a mood
disorder or depression-which seems to me to be a normal reaction to our
march toward collective suicide. Welcome to the asylum.

When the most basic elements that sustain life are reduced to a cash
product, life has no intrinsic value. The extinguishing of "primitive"
societies, those that were defined by animism and mysticism, those that
celebrated ambiguity and mystery, those that respected the centrality of the
human imagination, removed the only ideological counterweight to a
self-devouring capitalist ideology. Those who held on to pre-modern beliefs,
such as Native Americans, who structured themselves around a communal life
and self-sacrifice rather than hoarding and wage exploitation, could not be
accommodated within the ethic of capitalist exploitation, the cult of the
self and the lust for imperial expansion. The prosaic was pitted against the
allegorical. And as we race toward the collapse of the planet's ecosystem we
must restore this older vision of life if we are to survive.

The war on the Native Americans, like the wars waged by colonialists around
the globe, was waged to eradicate not only a people but a competing ethic.
The older form of human community was antithetical and hostile to
capitalism, the primacy of the technological state and the demands of
empire. This struggle between belief systems was not lost on Marx. "The
Ethnological Notebooks of Karl Marx" is a series of observations derived
from Marx's reading of works by historians and anthropologists. He took
notes about the traditions, practices, social structure, economic systems
and beliefs of numerous indigenous cultures targeted for destruction. Marx
noted arcane details about the formation of Native American society, but
also that "lands [were] owned by the tribes in common, while tenement-houses
[were] owned jointly by their occupants." He wrote of the Aztecs, "Commune
tenure of lands; Life in large households composed of a number of related
families." He went on, ". reasons for believing they practiced communism in
living in the household." Native Americans, especially the Iroquois,
provided the governing model for the union of the American colonies, and
also proved vital to Marx and Engel's vision of communism.

Marx, though he placed a naive faith in the power of the state to create his
workers' utopia and discounted important social and cultural forces outside
of economics, was acutely aware that something essential to human dignity
and independence had been lost with the destruction of pre-modern societies.
The Iroquois Council of the Gens, where Indians came together to be heard as
ancient Athenians did, was, Marx noted, a "democratic assembly where every
adult male and female member had a voice upon all questions brought before
it." Marx lauded the active participation of women in tribal affairs,
writing, "The women [were] allowed to express their wishes and opinions
through an orator of their own election. Decision given by the Council.
Unanimity was a fundamental law of its action among the Iroquois." European
women on the Continent and in the colonies had no equivalent power.

Rebuilding this older vision of community, one based on cooperation rather
than exploitation, will be as important to our survival as changing our
patterns of consumption, growing food locally and ending our dependence on
fossil fuels. The pre-modern societies of Sitting Bull and Crazy
Horse-although they were not always idyllic and performed acts of cruelty
including the mutilation, torture and execution of captives-did not
subordinate the sacred to the technical. The deities they worshipped were
not outside of or separate from nature.

Seventeenth century European philosophy and the Enlightenment, meanwhile,
exalted the separation of human beings from the natural world, a belief also
embraced by the Bible. The natural world, along with those pre-modern
cultures that lived in harmony with it, was seen by the industrial society
of the Enlightenment as worthy only of exploitation.Descartes argued, for
example, that the fullest exploitation of matter toany use was the duty of
humankind. The wilderness became, in the religious language of the Puritans,
satanic. It had to be Christianized and subdued. The implantation of the
technical order resulted, as Richard Slotkin writes in "Regeneration Through
Violence," in the primacy of "the western man-on-the-make, the speculator,
and the wildcat banker." Davy Crockett and, later, George Armstrong Custer,
Slotkin notes, became "national heroes by defining national aspiration in
terms of so many bears destroyed, so much land preempted, so many trees
hacked down, so many Indians and Mexicans dead in the dust."

The demented project of endless capitalist expansion, profligate
consumption, senseless exploitation and industrial growth is now imploding.
Corporate hustlers are as blind to the ramifications of their
self-destructive fury as were Custer, the gold speculators and the railroad
magnates. They seized Indian land, killed off its inhabitants, slaughtered
the buffalo herds and cut down the forests. Their heirs wage war throughout
the Middle East, pollute the seas and water systems, foul the air and soil
and gamble with commodities as half the globe sinks into abject poverty and
misery. The Book of Revelation defines this single-minded drive for profit
as handing over authority to the "beast."

The conflation of technological advancement with human progress leads to
self-worship. Reason makes possible the calculations, science and
technological advances of industrial civilization, but reason does not
connect us with the forces of life. A society that loses the capacity for
the sacred, that lacks the power of human imagination, that cannot practice
empathy, ultimately ensures its own destruction. The Native Americans
understood there are powers and forces we can never control and must honor.
They knew, as did the ancient Greeks, that hubris is the deadliest curse of
the human race. This is a lesson that we will probably have to learn for
ourselves at the cost of tremendous suffering.

In William Shakespeare's "The Tempest," Prospero is stranded on an island
where he becomes the undisputed lord and master. He enslaves the primitive
"monster" Caliban. He employs the magical sources of power embodied in the
spirit Ariel, who is of fire and air. The forces unleashed in the island's
wilderness, Shakespeare knew, could prompt us to good if we had the capacity
for self-control and reverence. But it also could push us toward monstrous
evil since there are few constraints to thwart plunder, rape, murder, greed
and power. Later, Joseph Conrad, in his portraits of the outposts of empire,
also would expose the same intoxication with barbarity.

The anthropologist Lewis Henry Morgan, who in 1846 was "adopted" by the
Seneca, one of the tribes belonging to the Iroquois confederation, wrote in
"Ancient Society" about social evolution among American Indians. Marx noted
approvingly, in his "Ethnological Notebooks," Morgan's insistence on the
historical and social importance of "imagination, that great faculty so
largely contributing to the elevation of mankind." Imagination, as the
Shakespearean scholar Harold C. Goddard pointed out, "is neither the
language of nature nor the language of man, but both at once, the medium of
communion between the two. ... Imagination is the elemental speech in all
senses, the first and the last, of primitive man and of the poets."

All that concerns itself with beauty and truth, with those forces that have
the power to transform us, is being steadily extinguished by our corporate
state. Art. Education. Literature. Music. Theater. Dance. Poetry.
Philosophy. Religion. Journalism. None of these disciplines are worthy in
the corporate state of support or compensation. These are pursuits that,
even in our universities, are condemned as impractical. But it is only
through the impractical, through that which can empower our imagination,
that we will be rescued as a species. The prosaic world of news events, the
collection of scientific and factual data, stock market statistics and the
sterile recording of deeds as history do not permit us to understand the
elemental speech of imagination. We will never penetrate the mystery of
creation, or the meaning of existence, if we do not recover this older
language. Poetry shows a man his soul, Goddard wrote, "as a looking glass
does his face." And it is our souls that the culture of imperialism,
business and technology seeks to crush.

Walter Benjamin argued that capitalism is not only a formation "conditioned
by religion," but is an "essentially religious phenomenon," albeit one that
no longer seeks to connect humans with the mysterious forces of life.
Capitalism, as Benjamin observed, called on human societies to embark on a
ceaseless and futile quest for money and goods. This quest, he warned,
perpetuates a culture dominated by guilt, a sense of inadequacy and
self-loathing. It enslaves nearly all its adherents through wages,
subservience to the commodity culture and debt peonage. The suffering
visited on Native Americans, once Western expansion was complete, was soon
endured by others, in Cuba, the Philippines, Nicaragua, the Dominican
Republic, Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan. The final chapter of this sad
experiment in human history will see us sacrificed as those on the outer
reaches of empire were sacrificed. There is a kind of justice to this. We
profited as a nation from this demented vision, we remained passive and
silent when we should have denounced the crimes committed in our name, and
now that the game is up we all go down together.


Chris Hedges, a Pulitzer Prize-winning reporter, is a senior fellow at the
Nation Institute. He writes a regular column for TruthDig every Monday. His
latest book is Empire of Illusion: The End of Literacy and the Triumph of
Spectacle.

C 2012 Truthdig All rights reserved.
View this story online at: http://www.alternet.org/story/155213/

_______________________________________________
Blind-Democracy mailing list
Blind-Democracy@octothorp.org
http://www.octothorp.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-democracy

prisons: Do they prevent crime?

To All Fighters Of Crime,

Of course we can never get a comparison between Classes, regarding the percentage of crimes committed or the meting out of justice. 

First, there is a high wall between the Ruling Class, fondly called the 1%, and the rest of Americans.  But even within the lower Classes differences exist as to who is apprehended and how they are processed by the judicial system. 

As a White, Middle/Working Class youth, I was nailed one summer evening on the streets of downtown Seattle, while staggering happily along.  My cousin and I had purchased a fine bottle of some sort of high octane booze, courtesy of a local down at the heels fellow waiting to be of assistance to under age guys like us, for the price of a jug of cheap wine. 

We arrived at the Grey Bar Motel(Jail) at around 1:00 A.M.  A call to my parents brought them to the rescue, bailing us out along with long, serious, angry sermons.  Two months later I missed my first day of college classes so that I might appear in front of a not so kindly judge.  But I hung my head and mumbled appropriately, promising never to again get caught...uh, I mean never to do it again. 

And that was that. 

Fast forward to my days at the Drapery Factory.  I hired a young Black kid as my helper in the freight room.  He had just been released from jail after serving 6 months.  Serious stuff.  Can you guess what his crime had been to warrant 6 months in the County Can? 

Well, he and a couple of friends had just finished off a jug of fine hooch, purchased via a friendly, down at the heels fellow who hung around the liquor store door making his services available to under age youths like these fellows.  After that, the similarities came to a crashing end. 

We are a Class Society and we are deeply prejudiced.  Worst of all, we, like any good addict, are in deep denial. 

 

Curious Carl

 

 

Too damned fat

The Sizzler, an all you can eat  buffet in Bremerton, Washington used to provide trays for their customers to place plates of food on.  When it became clear that many of the super sized customers just grabbed trays and bypassed the plates, the management discontinued the trays, saying that it was for sanitary reasons. 

 

Carl Jarvis

----- Original Message -----

From: michael townsend

To: blind-democracy@octothorp.org

Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2012 7:08 AM

Subject: Too damned fat

A man is filing a law suit against an "all you can eat fish fry:" restaurant
because they cut him off at 12 pieces of fried fish.  Okay, fatso, this is
living proof that
America is just too damned fat. 
There is no need for one person to eat 12 fish filets, even if the sign says
"all you can shove in your pie hole".


Dogs are the leaders of the planet. If you see two life forms, one of them's
making
a poop, the other one's carrying it for him, who would you assume is in
charge?
Jerry Seinfeld

Mike Townsend and Seeing Eye dog Brent
Dunellen, New Jersey  08812
emails:  mrtownsend@optonline.net
         michael.townsend54@gmail.com
H:  732  2005643
C:  732  7189480


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Blind-Democracy mailing list
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Working Families Party petition

Is there no end to our insanity? 

While Mother Earth burns, Mark Zuckerberg fiddles with a big corporate tax loophole. 

Curious Carl

Dear friends,

You're not gonna Like this. Facebook plans to Like tax loopholes this week
-- in a big way. And it'll cost taxpayers billions.

How is Facebook posting this mega tax break on its timeline? Well, "it's
complicated." But basically, when the company goes public tomorrow, it will
take advantage of a major corporate tax loophole to secure a $3 billion
dollar tax break.

Yes, that's right, $3 billion - even more than the amount J.P. Morgan just
lost through reckless banking. Even though Facebook is extremely profitable,
this loophole will zero out its entire tax bill this year, and likely for
years to come.

Poke Facebook CEO Mark Zuckerberg and tell him that his big corporate tax
dodge won't win him any friends.

once a flunky always a flunky

On balance, I'd rather work for Nordstrom's than for most other retailers.  Especially Wal-Mart.  My son worked for several years for Fred Meyer's.  It was the same old same old.  Low wages, non-union, extra work for no extra pay.  It was always interesting to me to hear these tight fisted store managements demand Loyalty from their employees, some go so far as to fire you if you are caught with competitor's products, but they never talk about developing respect between company and employees. 

Oh, bite my tongue!  Respect for the flunkies? 

Curious Carl

 

So now we must justify why our Freedom Loving American Empire supports the Saudi Royal Family. 

What kind of silliness is this?  "My friendly dictators are better than your bad dictators".  Nah nee Nah Nee Nah. 

 

Curious Carl

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Eric Calhoun

To: acb-chat@acb.org

Sent: Friday, May 18, 2012 12:51 AM

Subject: [acb-chat] FW: [Native_American_Christians] IRANIAN PAPERS BOASTSOF END TO U.S.-ISRAEL ALLIANCE

From another list.   Mr. Hachey, is this factual?


Original Message:
From: "revjoe2701@comcast.net" <revjoe2701@comcast.net>
To: "-???...Rev. Joe Diaz...-???" <revjoe2701@comcast.net>
Subject: [Native_American_Christians] IRANIAN PAPERS BOASTS OF END TO
U.S.-ISRAEL ALLIANCE
Date:
Thu, 17 May 2012 19:08:05 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)

 

Shared by Mary Ann Trott



 

 

Wednesday, May 16, 2012

Iranian Paper Boasts of End to U.S.-Israel Alliance, Predicts Destruction
of
Israel After Fall of Saudi Royal Family

By Ryan Mauro

WorldThreats.com


    



An Iranian newspaper tied to Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei recently boasted
that the U.S. has ?rejected? Israel over the past three months. This
belief
could have disastrous consequences. The author writes that the only
?obstacle? remaining is the Saudi Royal Family and once it falls, Israel
can
be destroyed.

?It can be said that within the last 60 years, this is the first time
that
the Zionist regime, since its illegal inception, has had to endure
rejection
by the West over its vision and interest in the region,? wrote Sadollah
Zarei, according to a translation by Reza Kahlili.

It?s easy to see why Iran has picked up on this fact, which Democrats
have
desperately tried to deny throughout Obama?s tenure. Headline after
headline
is about the U.S. trying to hold Israel back. In March, an anonymous
administration official told the Washington Post, ?We?re trying to make
the
decision to attack as hard as possible for Israel.?

There?s been a steady stream of leaks from administration officials
potentially damaging Israel. On March 28, Foreign Policy reported on the
alleged existence of a secret agreement between Israel and Azerbaijan
making
the latter?s airbases available for a potential strike on Iran. The
results
of a classified war game simulating a conflict between Israel and Iran
that
showed hundreds of U.S. casualties made its way into the press. Another
report claimed that Israel is using members of the MEK Iranian opposition
group to target Iran?s nuclear scientists.

The author attributes the change in U.S. policy to recognition of Iranian
strength because of the Arab Spring, which he refers to as the ?Islamic
Awakening.? He specifically mentions the removal of Egyptian President
Hosni
Mubarak and the subsequent takeover of the country by Islamist forces.
Zarei
also claims that the U.S. is ?on the verge of accepting the Iranian
nuclear
program? and points to statements by Israeli officials that Iran is
?rational? as proof that the Israeli government is weakening.

The Coming Is upon Us

Don?t let the fact that Iran is Shiite and the Muslim Brotherhood and
Salafists are Sunni fool you. The two forces may be battling in Syria, but
the Iranian regime still believes that its rise is a fulfillment of
Islamic
End Times prophecy. Last year, Ahmadinejad?s office produced a
documentary
titled The Coming Is upon Us. It outlined how it views its role in
Islamic
prophecy and plainly states that the Muslim Brotherhood?s ascendance is
?in
accordance with the Hadith.?

In February, Khamenei declared, ?From now on, in any place, if any nation
or
any group confronts the Zionist regime, we will endorse and we will
help.?
This should be seen as an overture to the Muslim Brotherhood. The film
states that the destruction of Israel is preceded by the creation of an
anti-Western Arab coalition.

Arguably the most important line in Zarei?s column is this: ?With
diminishing support for Israel and with the (upcoming) collapse of the
monarchy in Saudi Arabia, there won?t be any obstacles left facing Iran
with
its policy of annihilation of Israel.?

This statement echoes what the apocalyptic documentary said. In The
Coming
Is upon Us, the regime teaches that the death of Saudi King Abdullah will
be
a fulfillment of prophecy and one of the last precursors to Israel?s
destruction. Saudi Arabia will be consumed with internal turmoil until the
Mahdi appears to vanquish Islam?s enemies. King Abdullah is at least 87
years old.

In August, a Hezbollah MP in Lebanon, retired Brigadier-General Walid
Sakariya, stated that two other things must happen before the final war to
destroy Israel can begin: U.S. forces must leave Iraq and the Assad regime
in Syria must be secure. The first objective has been completed.

President Ahmadinejad recently stated the war is not necessary to destroy
Israel if the Arab world unites against it. However, the voices describing
such a war in detail are getting louder.

In February, the deputy-commander of the Iranian military announced a
change
in policy. ?Our strategy now is that if we feel our enemies want to
endanger
Iran?s national interests, and want to decide to do that, we will act
without waiting for their actions,? he said.

Around the same time, the director of the parliament?s research
institute,
Ahmed Tavakoli, said Iran should attack Israel by the end of the year,
urging the regime to take advantage of the political climate in the U.S.
Tavakoli said that Iranian missiles could pummel the coastal area to the
south of Tel Aviv and Jerusalem in order to degrade Israel?s retaliatory
capacity. He said that the Dimona nuclear reactor and a smaller reactor
south of Tel Aviv must also be destroyed.

That same month, the former governor of Kish Province and pro-Khamenei
strategist, Alireza Forghani, went even further and outlined a strategy of
genocide against the Jewish population of Israel. His analysis was
reposted
at several other regime websites, most notably the Fars News Agency
operated
by the Revolutionary Guards.

Forghani said that Shahab-3 missiles could destroy Tel Aviv, Jerusalem
and
Haifa, eliminating 60% of the Jews in Israel. Nuclear reactors, air force
bases and airbases should be targeted in the first wave by Sejil missiles.
Secondary targets would include power plants, communication sites,
transportation sites and sewage treatment facilities. Altogether, he said,
it would take about nine minutes. He strongly recommended that the attack
happen before 2014. That is when Ahmadinejad?s term ends.

This genocidal madness was endorsed by Ayatollah Mesbah-Yazdi, an
influential hardline cleric. Reza Kahlili reports that he recently ruled
that all Israelis who did not oppose the country?s ?vicious crimes? are
legitimate targets. Mesbah-Yazdi has written in support of Iran acquiring
nuclear weapons and one of his disciples issued a fatwa in 2006 justifying
their use.

Policymakers need to recognize that public tensions between the U.S. and
Israel and displays of American weakness reinforce the regime?s beliefs.
In
The Coming Is upon Us, the regime uses quotes from U.S. officials stating
that there is no viable military option against Iran as proof that
prophecy
is being fulfilled.

No good comes from making Iran believe that the U.S. isn?t interested in
defending Israel.



Related Links


Iran drills first large-scale paratroop drops for offensive action ?
DEBKAfile

Growing tensions between Iran and Saudi Arabia over Bahrain ? Al-Bawaba

Khameini told me Iran will win ?inevitable? conflict with Israel and US,
says Spain?s ex-PM ? Times of Israel

Iran Boasts of End to US-Israel Alliance ? Arutz Sheva

Iran installing more centrifuges before Baghdad talks ? Jerusalem Post







 

---

_______________________________________________
acb-chat mailing list
acb-chat@acb.org
http://www.acb.org/mailman/listinfo/acb-chat

Just keep on making babies

To All Lovers of Despots,

 

Back in the 50's a very popular book was entitled, "The Ugly American".  It is perhaps even more relevant today.  We average Americans have been sitting by for years while our corporate First Class Citizens have been sowing the seeds of hatred of America, throughout the world. 

But our Ruling Class can't seem to step up to the plate and take credit for their actions.  No, it has to be the bad dictators, many of whom we supported in the past, who have turned on us.  But so long as we have sons and daughters to spare, the Ruling Class will march onward, carrying the Cross of Jesus, onward to the next oil well. 

 

Curious Carl

----- Original Message -----

From: Bob Hachey

To: acb-chat@acb.org

Sent: Friday, May 18, 2012 7:05 AM

Subject: Re: [acb-chat] FW: [Native_American_Christians] IRANIAN PAPERSBOASTS OF END TO U.S.-ISRAEL ALLIANCE

Hi Eric,
I must say that I am flattered that you believe that I can, with certainty,
state whether or not this piece is true.
Without further research, I'm not sure. I do think it is a bit alarmist.
One thing I do know is that there are many complexities in the Middle East
and that we Americans ahave too often acted in a short-sighted manner toward
that region seeking either to obtain oil as inexpensively as possible or
fighting a so-called war on terror. WE have supported horrible governments
in the name of national interest.
IN summary, if you want to learn how not to make friends and influence
people, take a good look at American foreign policy regarding the Middle
East for the last 50 or so years.
Bob Hachey
----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric Calhoun" <eric@pmpmail.com>
To: <acb-chat@acb.org>
Sent: Friday, May 18, 2012 3:51 AM
Subject: [acb-chat] FW: [Native_American_Christians] IRANIAN PAPERS BOASTS
OF END TO U.S.-ISRAEL ALLIANCE


> From another list.   Mr. Hachey, is this factual?
>
>
> Original Message:
> From: "revjoe2701@comcast.net" <revjoe2701@comcast.net>
> To: "-???...Rev. Joe Diaz...-???" <revjoe2701@comcast.net>
> Subject: [Native_American_Christians] IRANIAN PAPERS BOASTS OF END TO
> U.S.-ISRAEL ALLIANCE
> Date:
> Thu, 17 May 2012 19:08:05 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
>
>
>
> Shared by Mary Ann Trott
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Wednesday, May 16, 2012
>
> Iranian Paper Boasts of End to U.S.-Israel Alliance, Predicts Destruction
> of
> Israel After Fall of Saudi Royal Family
>
> By Ryan Mauro
>
> WorldThreats.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
> An Iranian newspaper tied to Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei recently boasted
> that the U.S. has ?rejected? Israel over the past three months. This
> belief
> could have disastrous consequences. The author writes that the only
> ?obstacle? remaining is the Saudi Royal Family and once it falls, Israel
> can
> be destroyed.
>
> ?It can be said that within the last 60 years, this is the first time
> that
> the Zionist regime, since its illegal inception, has had to endure
> rejection
> by the West over its vision and interest in the region,? wrote Sadollah
> Zarei, according to a translation by Reza Kahlili.
>
> It?s easy to see why Iran has picked up on this fact, which Democrats
> have
> desperately tried to deny throughout Obama?s tenure. Headline after
> headline
> is about the U.S. trying to hold Israel back. In March, an anonymous
> administration official told the Washington Post, ?We?re trying to make
> the
> decision to attack as hard as possible for Israel.?
>
> There?s been a steady stream of leaks from administration officials
> potentially damaging Israel. On March 28, Foreign Policy reported on the
> alleged existence of a secret agreement between Israel and Azerbaijan
> making
> the latter?s airbases available for a potential strike on Iran. The
> results
> of a classified war game simulating a conflict between Israel and Iran
> that
> showed hundreds of U.S. casualties made its way into the press. Another
> report claimed that Israel is using members of the MEK Iranian opposition
> group to target Iran?s nuclear scientists.
>
> The author attributes the change in U.S. policy to recognition of Iranian
> strength because of the Arab Spring, which he refers to as the ?Islamic
> Awakening.? He specifically mentions the removal of Egyptian President
> Hosni
> Mubarak and the subsequent takeover of the country by Islamist forces.
> Zarei
> also claims that the U.S. is ?on the verge of accepting the Iranian
> nuclear
> program? and points to statements by Israeli officials that Iran is
> ?rational? as proof that the Israeli government is weakening.
>
> The Coming Is upon Us
>
> Don?t let the fact that Iran is Shiite and the Muslim Brotherhood and
> Salafists are Sunni fool you. The two forces may be battling in Syria, but
> the Iranian regime still believes that its rise is a fulfillment of
> Islamic
> End Times prophecy. Last year, Ahmadinejad?s office produced a
> documentary
> titled The Coming Is upon Us. It outlined how it views its role in
> Islamic
> prophecy and plainly states that the Muslim Brotherhood?s ascendance is
> ?in
> accordance with the Hadith.?
>
> In February, Khamenei declared, ?From now on, in any place, if any nation
> or
> any group confronts the Zionist regime, we will endorse and we will
> help.?
> This should be seen as an overture to the Muslim Brotherhood. The film
> states that the destruction of Israel is preceded by the creation of an
> anti-Western Arab coalition.
>
> Arguably the most important line in Zarei?s column is this: ?With
> diminishing support for Israel and with the (upcoming) collapse of the
> monarchy in Saudi Arabia, there won?t be any obstacles left facing Iran
> with
> its policy of annihilation of Israel.?
>
> This statement echoes what the apocalyptic documentary said. In The
> Coming
> Is upon Us, the regime teaches that the death of Saudi King Abdullah will
> be
> a fulfillment of prophecy and one of the last precursors to Israel?s
> destruction. Saudi Arabia will be consumed with internal turmoil until the
> Mahdi appears to vanquish Islam?s enemies. King Abdullah is at least 87
> years old.
>
> In August, a Hezbollah MP in Lebanon, retired Brigadier-General Walid
> Sakariya, stated that two other things must happen before the final war to
> destroy Israel can begin: U.S. forces must leave Iraq and the Assad regime
> in Syria must be secure. The first objective has been completed.
>
> President Ahmadinejad recently stated the war is not necessary to destroy
> Israel if the Arab world unites against it. However, the voices describing
> such a war in detail are getting louder.
>
> In February, the deputy-commander of the Iranian military announced a
> change
> in policy. ?Our strategy now is that if we feel our enemies want to
> endanger
> Iran?s national interests, and want to decide to do that, we will act
> without waiting for their actions,? he said.
>
> Around the same time, the director of the parliament?s research
> institute,
> Ahmed Tavakoli, said Iran should attack Israel by the end of the year,
> urging the regime to take advantage of the political climate in the U.S.
> Tavakoli said that Iranian missiles could pummel the coastal area to the
> south of Tel Aviv and Jerusalem in order to degrade Israel?s retaliatory
> capacity. He said that the Dimona nuclear reactor and a smaller reactor
> south of Tel Aviv must also be destroyed.
>
> That same month, the former governor of Kish Province and pro-Khamenei
> strategist, Alireza Forghani, went even further and outlined a strategy of
> genocide against the Jewish population of Israel. His analysis was
> reposted
> at several other regime websites, most notably the Fars News Agency
> operated
> by the Revolutionary Guards.
>
> Forghani said that Shahab-3 missiles could destroy Tel Aviv, Jerusalem
> and
> Haifa, eliminating 60% of the Jews in Israel. Nuclear reactors, air force
> bases and airbases should be targeted in the first wave by Sejil missiles.
> Secondary targets would include power plants, communication sites,
> transportation sites and sewage treatment facilities. Altogether, he said,
> it would take about nine minutes. He strongly recommended that the attack
> happen before 2014. That is when Ahmadinejad?s term ends.
>
> This genocidal madness was endorsed by Ayatollah Mesbah-Yazdi, an
> influential hardline cleric. Reza Kahlili reports that he recently ruled
> that all Israelis who did not oppose the country?s ?vicious crimes? are
> legitimate targets. Mesbah-Yazdi has written in support of Iran acquiring
> nuclear weapons and one of his disciples issued a fatwa in 2006 justifying
> their use.
>
> Policymakers need to recognize that public tensions between the U.S. and
> Israel and displays of American weakness reinforce the regime?s beliefs.
> In
> The Coming Is upon Us, the regime uses quotes from U.S. officials stating
> that there is no viable military option against Iran as proof that
> prophecy
> is being fulfilled.
>
> No good comes from making Iran believe that the U.S. isn?t interested in
> defending Israel.
>
>
>
> Related Links
>
>
> Iran drills first large-scale paratroop drops for offensive action ?
> DEBKAfile
>
> Growing tensions between Iran and Saudi Arabia over Bahrain ? Al-Bawaba
>
> Khameini told me Iran will win ?inevitable? conflict with Israel and US,
> says Spain?s ex-PM ? Times of Israel
>
> Iran Boasts of End to US-Israel Alliance ? Arutz Sheva
>
> Iran installing more centrifuges before Baghdad talks ? Jerusalem Post
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


> _______________________________________________
> acb-chat mailing list
> acb-chat@acb.org
> http://www.acb.org/mailman/listinfo/acb-chat
>

_______________________________________________
acb-chat mailing list
acb-chat@acb.org
http://www.acb.org/mailman/listinfo/acb-chat

more ramblings about God and the good old days

Perhaps if we return to those God Fearing Good Old Days that conservatives love to dream about, perhaps then we could say that God would keep us from harm.  But you know how it is.  God can be a very angry God.  And now that Americans have strayed away from His teachings and are embracing same sex marriages  and allowing the Races to mix, and stuff like that, God is going to have to take steps to put us right again.  Far right. 

We can look forward to those loving days like when Columbus brought Christianity to the Savages in India...or whatever.  Or love and peace like we had in America until those pushy Yankees broke up our plantations and turned our loving Coloreds against us. 

Or the Christian Charity we showed to children when we allowed them to work in the factories alongside their mothers, thus ensuring that Mom would not need to pay a baby sitter.  And dad was in the mine...if he didn't die of Black Lung, for 12 hours a day, keeping him out of trouble.  And the family had Sunday off so they could all show up in church to thank the Lord for the goodness of their company bosses. 

Those are the good old days that certain unnamed presidential candidates would have us return to. 

 

Curious Carl

 

God's sense of humor

Times are getting tough for us blind folk.  Someone said that maybe we could get a personal shopper at Nordstrom's.  Nordstrom's?  We Blind usually shop at Good Will or Value Village. 

If you don't have a spinning wheel out in the barn that you can dust off, or your skills as a weaver have become rusty, you might consider raising Figs.  Those leaves make good coverage, although they are a bit scratchy on the more tender parts of the body. 

I wonder if God still laughs over Adam and Eve covering their shame with Fig leaves?  Grass skirts would have been so much better. 

 

Curious Carl

it's all in how we see the world

Yes, the rich, just like you and me, die. 

A fellow my dad knew came by to "cheer him up" as dad was dying of cancer. 

"Well, thank goodness you have a clean room, a fine bed, and air conditioning," he said.  

Dad said, "What I have is my family looking out for me.  I could be laying on a stone floor in a cave, covered with a Buffalo blanket and I'd still be dying.  It's the love of my children that gives me comfort." 

 

Curious Carl

 

They're at it again

These politicians subscribe to the old adage, "If I can't dazzle them with my brilliance, I'll baffle them with my bullshit". 

 

Carl Jarvis

----- Original Message -----

From: michael townsend

To: blind-democracy@octothorp.org

Sent: Friday, May 18, 2012 11:44 AM

Subject: They're at it again

I see that the right wingers haven't strayed too far from their 2008
message; the secretary of state for Arizona is putting forth a petition that
wants Mr. Obama to show proof that he was born in the United States in order
that he can run on the
Arizona ballot; the advisor for former candidate John McCain, Fred Davis,
has teamed up with 'Chicago Cubs owner to begin an ugly campaign that
suggests that the association with Jeremiah Wright for twenty years proves
that Mr. Obama doesn't love this country.  In an ad that Mr. McCain refused
to run during his candidacy, McCain is said to have not walked away from
prison in North
Vietnam because he loved this country, a Mr. Obama didn't walk out of a
church officiated over by Jeremiah Wright because he didn't love this
country. 
Come on, folks; cut the crap and let's get to the real issues; jobs, which
republicans haven't helped to create because of stonewalling, and getting
this country's infrastructure back on track, because you republicans don't
give a damn about anyone but yourselves and keeping your cushy jobs in the
house and senate as politicians.  If you want proof of this, take a good
look back over the past four years of Obama's presidency!


Dogs are the leaders of the planet. If you see two life forms, one of them's
making
a poop, the other one's carrying it for him, who would you assume is in
charge?
Jerry Seinfeld

Mike Townsend and Seeing Eye dog Brent
Dunellen, New Jersey  08812
emails:  mrtownsend@optonline.net
         michael.townsend54@gmail.com
H:  732  2005643
C:  732  7189480


_______________________________________________
Blind-Democracy mailing list
Blind-Democracy@octothorp.org
http://www.octothorp.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-democracy

I Stand with Bernie Sanders.

I signed this, along with my comment that we assist the oil corporations to rid themselves of their dependency on Greed. 

Carl Jarvis

 

Over 10 billion dollars. A year. Over 110 billion dollars. A decade.

That's approximately how much we give, as taxpayers, to the Big Oil companies – we literally just give over $110 billion per decade in taxpayer funds away as corporate welfare subsidies, at a time of unemployment crisis and climate chaos. $113 billion of tax-breaks, handouts, and subsidies for the fossil fuel industry over the next 10 years. This isn't just unsustainable - it's unacceptable, and it has to end.

That's why we're asking you to join Bernie Sanders, 350.org and the Other 98% in saying: Enough is enough - let's pass the End Polluter Welfare Act.

Thankfully, a new piece of legislation that would repeal the giveaway has been introduced by Senator Bernie Sanders and Rep. Keith Ellison – and a left-right coalition is joining together to give it steam. The bill would strip away these outrageous subsidies. As you can imagine, the fossil fuel industry is going to fight back hard, so we need to come out as strong as possible and say: We stand with Bernie.

If you think ending Big Oil's welfare checks is a no-brainer, then join us and Bernie: Say NO to Big Oil Welfare.

Not only is fossil fuel the richest industry on earth, but any of us who pay taxes write it a hefty check each year. It's as if we're paying them a performance bonus for wrecking the climate. We'll never get to renewable energy if we keep handing gobs of money to Big Oil, Coal and Gas.

It's time to take a stand, and stop giving our money away to Big Oil companies that are already raking in record-breaking profits. Join us.

Thank you for all you do to make this movement real.

Sincerely,

The Other 98% Team

---

The Other 98% is making democracy work for the rest of us. Like what we do? You can donate to support this movement right now.

Undemocratic Democrats

Roger, Miriam and any Revolutionists or Revolutionary Wannabees. 

 

Looks like we might differ here Roger.  I see revolution coming over the next hill.  It may take a bit to gather enough force to make it a true revolution, but the Empire is doing all it can to hurry it along. 

Certainly that is not their intention, but it is what they are doing. 

Of course here on the ground it is hard to tell that it is a revolution for sure.  So much propaganda and divisiveness pumped into our heads for many years.  So much anger.  I see my job as that of pointing folks in the right direction.  Keep people from attacking one another and turning their wrath on the Ruling Class Robbers. 

The revolution will either be a learning experience, bringing folks together to build a better wheel, or it will be a wild mess and lead to some sort of dictatorship.  the choice will be up to us. 

 

Carl Jarvis

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Roger Loran Bailey

To: Blind Democracy Discussion List

Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2012 6:49 PM

Subject: Re: Undemocratic Democrats

Well, the plan is different depending on the stage of the struggle.
Right now there is no point to organizing a revolution because there is
no revolution to organize. The function of the revolutionary cadre in
these times of a lull in the class struggle is to function as a
propaganda and agitation organization. Running candidates is part of
that. The point is not to get elected even if that would be nice. The
point is to use an election campaign to get the word out. What is the
word? It concerns organizing the workers in their unions to prepare for
bigger struggles. It is in supporting workers in their small struggles
as well as in their big struggles. It is in part a matter of recruiting.
It is a matter of being right there on the ground to support and
participate in strikes right along with our fellow workers. As the
struggle grows it is to steer that struggle toward a goal of the workers
taking power. The trouble is that you can't do everything at once and
you can't do some things until a crisis comes along. You can't make the
crisis either. You have to be ready for it. You must encourage the
workers toward an ultimate insurrection and you have to make the workers
realize that you are one of them and not an outside force that is trying
to manipulate them to some outside ends. That would be sectarianism.

On 5/12/2012 9:32 PM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
> Roger,
>
> We are undoubtedly having a communications problem. It may be because you
> are using the abstract theory or phrases from it to explain it. I don't want
> to read all those books of Marxist theory as you suggest. And yes, you are
> repeating the explanations over and over and I am apparently not
> understanding what the words mean in practical terms. I understand what you
> are saying on a theoretical basis. But it doesn't have reality for me. You
> said, for example
> Scientific socialism, however, is grounded in the real world. Like I said,
> it is a matter of looking at the real world as it really is and accepting
> that reality and then developing theories of change based on that reality
> and then applying those theories to that reality to effect change and then
> looking at the new reality and proceeding with the process again. How can
> you get more practical and concrete than that?
> So, what's the plan? Is it to run candidates who can't possibly be elected?
> Is it to try to convince enough working people to join the Socialist
> Workers' Party so it can get people on the ballot or get enough money to
> advertise or what? Is it to refuse to participate in the current system and
> watch as more and more people drop into poverty and more and more people are
> disenfranchised because if enough people are hurt by the system, they will
> revolt and then the Socialist Workers will be there to pick up the pieces? I
> do understand all the words you say but I do not see how studying theory and
> quoting Marx and Lenin and the movement's other great thinkers, and having
> meetings of 100 or less people in various locations throughout the U.S. is
> going to accomplish anything. I do see it as a very interesting intellectual
> exercise and a way of relating to other people who see the world in similar
> ways.
>
> Miriam
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blind-democracy-bounces@octothorp.org
> [mailto:blind-democracy-bounces@octothorp.org] On Behalf Of Roger Loran
> Bailey
> Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2012 8:41 PM
> To: Blind Democracy Discussion List
> Subject: Re: Undemocratic Democrats
>
> Practical and concrete is exactly what it is all about though. There have
> been any number of pie in the sky so-called socialists who have posited some
> kind of ideal society and had absolutely no concrete program for achieving
> it. Scientific socialism, however, is grounded in the real world. Like I
> said, it is a matter of looking at the real world as it really is and
> accepting that reality and then developing theories of change based on that
> reality and then applying those theories to that reality to effect change
> and then looking at the new reality and proceeding with the process again.
> How can you get more practical and concrete than that? Dealing with the real
> world rather than with some kind of utopian fantasy is what concrete and
> practical is all about.
> That leaves me exasperated when I clearly explain that and then you say that
> you have a problem with what I am saying because you are more concerned with
> the practical and concrete. It is as if I am saying one thing and you are
> hearing an entirely different person talking to you with an entirely
> different message. As for the people whom a revolution is supposed to help
> being crushed by it, it again seems that you are hearing another person talk
> to you with an entirely different message rather than what I am saying. How
> many times do I have to say that revolution, especially a violent revolution
> is not what I advocate?
> Again, Trotsky was asked if the revolution was worth it considering how many
> people had to suffer because of it. His answer was that the question is
> teleological. The simple fact is that the conflict between classes builds
> toward revolution, or at least to some kind of violent outbreak. The ruling
> classes don't want it to happen. It involves their losing their power and
> privilege at the very least, but they cannot stop it as long as they
> maintain a class society. Even the smallest battles in the class struggle
> like those reformist goals you speak of are part of the process that builds
> toward a spasm in the class struggle. The oppressed classes don't want it
> either, but they have no way to stop it either, except to just lie down and
> be trodden over. That spasm in the class struggle causes a lot of suffering
> for the oppressed classes too.
> However, to stop the direction of the class struggle is like stopping a
> tsunami headed your way. You will not stop it. You have to deal with it the
> best way you can. Recognizing that is a part of recognizing reality and
> dealing with reality. That is recognizing the existence of and direction of
> the class struggle is simply being practical and concrete.
> Dealing with it involves taking control of steering that class struggle and
> that revolution. It is similar to riding down the highway in a car moving at
> 70 mph and the accelerator and the breaks both get stuck. You may not be
> able to stop it, but you can still take hold of the steering wheel and steer
> it. To do otherwise is not being practical and concrete.
> Now how is it that I am explaining this so that you seem to be hearing the
> explanations of a utopian socialist instead? Please, read Socialism,
> Scientific and Utopian by Frederik Engels to learn the difference if I am
> not getting across the difference.
>
> On 5/12/2012 3:54 PM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
>> The reason that you need to keep explaining that to me is that I tend
>> to be practical and concrete. That ultimate goal sounds lovely,
>> theoretically, but is meaningless to me in practical terms. I have
>> been reading the May 14th edition of The Nation today, which I
>> downloaded from BARD. This week, their large articles focus on the
>> poor. As I read it, I thought about the debate you and I have been
>> having and I thought about my daughter saying that she thought I would
>> be interested in attending a senior citizens' center if I could have
>> political discussions there. And I realized that I don't care about
>> having political discussions and that to me, politics is just a means
>> to what I'm concerned about, and that is real live people and what is
>> happening to them right now and what may happen to them tomorrow. Why
>> do I resist embracing revolution? Because a lot of the people whom
>> that revolution is ostensibly supposed to help, will be crushed by it.
>> Somewhere I read a quote to the effect that if you want to make an
>> omlet, you need to break eggs. Well, given the fact that the goal you
>> posit may never be attained, I'm one of those people whom
>> revolutionaries despise, who want to make things better and who are
>> willing to use lots of bandaids rather than actively tearing down the
>> system. Now if the system crumbles, which it may very well do, so be it.
> Then I hope that the leaders who take power, care about the people whom they
> are leading.
>> Miriam
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blind-democracy-bounces@octothorp.org
>> [mailto:blind-democracy-bounces@octothorp.org] On Behalf Of Roger
>> Loran Bailey
>> Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2012 1:26 PM
>> To: Blind Democracy Discussion List
>> Subject: Re: Undemocratic Democrats
>>
>>        Ah, but it does get tiresome to explain the same thing over and
>> over, but here I go again. How can you say that something is
>> unattainable when the goal is so open ended?  What is the goal that
>> you think is being striven for and how will you know that it is
>> attained if it is ever attained? Let me explain the ultimate goal
>> again. As Trotsky put it, our goal is to maximize humanity's power over
> nature and to minimize humanity's power over humanity.
>> How will you ever be able to tell when the ultimate maximization and
>> minimization is achieved and can it ever be achieved? I have used
>> examples before like the ability to teleport myself to the Andromeda
>> galaxy. No matter how much I might want to do that I cannot do it. It
>> is a failing I have in increasing my power over nature. At the same
>> time, though, I do not discount the possibility that it can ever be
>> done. Perhaps at a future date when more has been learned about the
>> reality in which we are imbedded  we will learn to manipulate that
>> reality to the point that it can be done. For the foreseeable future,
>> though, it cannot be done. Similarly, the ultimate decrease of humanity's
> power over humanity cannot be done just yet either.
>> The problem is that when a person wants to do anything he or she wants
>> to do and takes action to accomplish those wishes it tends to step on
>> other people's toes. That is, it tends to limit the ability of other
>> people to do what they want to do. There are also entirely too many
>> variables to consider. The study of these variables is called chaos
>> science. But the point is that no matter what you do you end up doing
>> things that you did not intend to do. No action you take as an
>> individual ever turns out exactly the way you want it to and nothing
>> we do collectively turns out exactly the way we collectively want it
>> to turn out, let alone the way certain individuals want it to turn out.
>> There is no revolution that turns out exactly the way we want it to
>> and there will never be a revolution that will turn out exactly the
>> way we want it to. The point of applying science to revolution is to
>> get it as close as we can and it is a very long-term prospect too. The
>> scientific approach is to try to determine how things really are as
>> closely as we can and then to apply actions to those things to make
>> them become closer to the way we want them to be. Every time we do
>> that we will have certain successes and certain failures. Our job is
>> then to look at the results and determine what we did right and what
>> we did wrong and then to develop theories that can be applied the next
>> time and then to do the same kind of assessment and action that next
>> time. However, by using the phrase next time I am afraid that I may be
>> giving a false impression of one action that ends and then another
>> action that starts and comes to an end too. Actually it is a
>> continuous process, a continuous process in which we are constantly
>> learning and developing
>>
>> On 5/12/2012 12:15 PM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
>>> I'm having difficulty equating Marxist theory with scientific theory.
>>> With science, there's a theory, and then scientists go about finding
>>> evidence which will prove or disprove the theory. But although I can
>>> certainly accept that there is evidence that Capitalism does not work
>>> for the majority of people and tends to implode when left to its own
>>> devices, I haven't seen evidence in history that marxist theory works
>>> as it is supposed to. Perhaps you will say that this is because other
>>> forces get in the way. But that is precisely my point. The other
>>> forces are human frailty. I said you have faith because you adhere to
>>> a theory which is beautiful as you conceptualize it, but, like
>>> heaven, appears to be a future goal toward which some dedicated
>>> people are constantly working but which, so far, has been
>>> unattainable. And as I watch events proceed each day, it seems less
>>> and less attainable. I note
>> that even Cuba has begun to do a bit of privatization.
>>> So, although I have respect for you and for the goal toward which you
>>> work, I can't help but see Marxist theory as just one more way of
>>> seeing human behavior through a system of thought which has only some
>>> connection with the real world.
>>>
>>> Miriam
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From:blind-democracy-bounces@octothorp.org
>>> [mailto:blind-democracy-bounces@octothorp.org] On Behalf Of Roger
>>> Loran Bailey
>>> Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2012 11:18 AM
>>> To: Blind Democracy Discussion List
>>> Subject: Re: Undemocratic Democrats
>>>
>>> Of course, a revolutionary is just as human as any other human. So
>>> what does that have to do with it? Scientific method is not human. It
>>> is dependent on the fabric of the universe itself. It is how we
>>> determine the character of the universe and it is how we determine
>>> how to best manipulate the universe to get it to do what we want. If
>>> humans who are subject to all the failings of humans apply scientific
>>> method to manipulating the universe -- in this case the specific
>>> manipulations that will steer revolution -- then the outcome will be
>>> more likely to be to the benefit of all of us. I mean, really, if you
>>> see a bull elephant charging you then do you just sit there and do
>>> nothing because you are a mere human and might make a mistake?  I
>>> would hope that you would do your best to determine which way was the
>>> safest to run and then run in that direction. If the building you
>>> live in is on fire do you just sit there because you are a fallible
>>> human being and just might make a mistake in trying to escape? You
>>> most certainly might, but is it not a pretty severe mistake to just
>>> sit there and burn up too? Now, thinking about this I remember
>>> earlier in this thread that you accused me of having faith in the way
>>> history works. I find it interesting that after you had decried the
>>> ignorance of a lot of people concerning things like Barack Obama's
>>> birthplace you started to tell me that I was under the burden of
>>> faith even after I had explained on numerous occasions that I have a
>>> scientific view of history and had explained how it was scientific.
>>> It seems that you are still having a difficult time grasping what is
>>> meant by scientific. An example of faith would be to just proclaim
>>> that the burning building around you is not burning and to really
>>> believe that as it incinerates you. Or, if you accepted that the
>>> building was burning you might pray that you would be saved while the
>>> fire consumed you. A scientific way of approaching the matter,
>>> though, would be to acknowledge the reality
>> that you were in a burning building and assess what you can do about
>> it. You might look for escape routes.
>>> You might determine that you can extinguish the fire. The point is
>>> that you will accept reality for being the reality that it is and
>>> then do your best to manipulate that reality to your advantage. Along
>>> the way you just might make mistakes that will be to your great
> disadvantage.
>>> Along the way you might find that your assessment was wrong and pay
>>> the price because, for example, you just might assess that a certain
>>> stair well was not on fire and enter it only to find out too late
>>> that it was on fire anyway. Well, there is no way that a mere human
>>> being can assess reality to the ultimate precision. That does not
>>> mean that you will not stand a better chance of surviving by
>>> approaching reality as reality than approaching it with faith that it is
> a way that it is not.
>>> Similarly, if you study human history you will find a constant class
>>> struggle that builds up until it breaks out into armed conflict or
>>> something else drastic. When there is a leadership that has a goal
>>> and applies a full recognition of reality to the situation then
>>> something advantageous comes out of the conflict. When there is no
>>> one facing reality and making plans accordingly there is a strong
>>> tendency to social collapse. The danger exists that the collapse will
>>> happen anyway because those leaders are, as you pointed out, merely
> human.
>>> However, they do not say that just because they are merely human they
>>> will do nothing and just let the collapse overcome them.
>>> On 5/12/2012 9:57 AM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
>>>> OK. My problem with this theory is that the members of this trained
>>>> revolutionary leadership are prone to the same human weaknesses as
>>>> everyone else. The fact  that they adhere to a particular
>>>> philosophical revolutionary theory doesn't make them immune to human
>>>> foibles such as greed, jealousy, unreasoning anger, etc. There are,
>>>> in theory, good and bad systems and institutions but these are all
>>>> dependent on the strengths and weaknesses of the people who run them.
>>>> The smaller the entity, the better the chance is that we, as
>>>> individuals,
>>> can influence it.
>>>> Miriam
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From:blind-democracy-bounces@octothorp.org
>>>> [mailto:blind-democracy-bounces@octothorp.org] On Behalf Of Roger
>>>> Loran Bailey
>>>> Sent: Friday, May 11, 2012 11:31 PM
>>>> To: Blind Democracy Discussion List
>>>> Subject: Re: Undemocratic Democrats
>>>>
>>>> No, that socialist society will prevail only if a revolutionary
>>>> leadership exists to guide and nurture it. Whether there is a
>>>> revolutionary leadership that has been trained in revolutionary
>>>> tactics or not, though, it still remains that as class
>>>> contradictions build up a drastic clash will eventually occur. If
>>>> there is no one to lead us into some kind of organized response then
>>>> that clash will be very detrimental for everyone. You had better
>>>> hope that a cadre of trained revolutionaries exists when the shit
>>>> hits the fan. Better yet, join the embryo of that cadre of
>>>> revolutionaries now. If you cannot join it -- I do keep in mind your
>>>> physical restrictions
>>>> -- then urge others to do so and learn the arguments that you have
>>>> to make to convince them to do so.
>>>> It is far from a matter of having faith. Those who have faith that
>>>> something will happen almost always fail to realize what they are
>>>> having
>>> faith in.
>>>> Those who go about analyzing the real situation and on that basis
>>>> planning and acting on a scientific course of action may also fail,
>>>> but they have a much greater chance of achieving what they want than
>>>> those who just sit back and say I know it will be all for the best.
>>>>
>>>> On 5/11/2012 10:11 PM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
>>>>> Roger,
>>>>>
>>>>> You are a man who demonstrates more faith than my friend, the nun,
>>>>> who returned to the Dominicans. You believe that we should watch
>>>>> our society crumble, or even help it do so, and that ultimately,
>>>>> good will prevail. The resulting chaos will be relatively short
>>>>> lived and whatever pain is suffered by folks will be worth it
>>>>> because the end justifies the means. Revolutionary leaders with the
>>>>> best interests of the workers in mind, will emerge and the workers,
>>>>> basically all cooperative people with no malice toward anyone, will
>>>>> then have a chance to develop a system that benefits everyone.
>>>>> Negative qualities like selfishness, anger, and the need to control
>>>>> others, are all just products of the capitalist system, not part of
>>>>> human nature, and if the
>>>> system is overthrown, good and truth will prevail.
>>>>> Miriam
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From:blind-democracy-bounces@octothorp.org
>>>>> [mailto:blind-democracy-bounces@octothorp.org] On Behalf Of Roger
>>>>> Loran Bailey
>>>>> Sent: Friday, May 11, 2012 8:44 PM
>>>>> To: Blind Democracy Discussion List
>>>>> Subject: Re: Undemocratic Democrats
>>>>>
>>>>> No, we do not have a majority of incompetents in congress. They are
>>>>> quite competent in looking out for the ones they are charged with
>>>>> looking
>>>> out for.
>>>>> As for being gleeful about societal breakdown, it is inevitable
>>>>> anyway and it is necessary for revolution to happen. In and of
>>>>> itself it is certainly not desirable and our job is to shorten it
>>>>> when it does happen and to lead the way forward when it does happen.
>>>>> There are, of course, dangers inherent in that road, but it is the
>>>>> avoidance of those dangers that revolutionary leadership will help
>>>>> us overcome. For right now our job is to give the system a few
>>>>> kicks and to prepare for when the shit hits the fan.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 5/11/2012 3:40 PM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
>>>>>> We already have a majority of incompetents who have been elected
>>>>>> to the House of Representatives and the system goes on rewarding
>>>>>> the wealthy and screwing over the rest of us, but it is in no
>>>>>> danger of being overthrown. It isn't breaking down either. Or if
>>>>>> it is, what we are seeing is the poor, the old, the disabled and
>>>>>> the rest of the most vulnerable population being threatened. I
>>>>>> really don't understand how anyone can sound gleeful about
>>>>>> societal breakdown just because there is a dim hope that in the
>>>>>> far flung future, a socialist society might conceivably be formed.
>>>>>> There's an equally good chance that after the suffering of
>>>>>> millions of people and the breakdown of society, we'll end up
>>>>> with a fascist state.
>>>>>> Miriam
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From:blind-democracy-bounces@octothorp.org
>>>>>> [mailto:blind-democracy-bounces@octothorp.org] On Behalf Of Roger
>>>>>> Loran Bailey
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, May 11, 2012 2:34 PM
>>>>>> To: Blind Democracy Discussion List
>>>>>> Subject: Re: Undemocratic Democrats
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Actually, I would rather see incompetent candidates elected. The
>>>>>> ones who do fill these positions may be competent, but look at
>>>>>> what they are competent at doing. They are competent at screwing
>>>>>> over the vast majority for the benefit of their masters. Oh, they
>>>>>> certainly have their safeguards to ensure that those competent
>>>>>> toadies keep being elected, but if we could get a few incompetents
>>>>>> in then it would be a wedge to encourage the collapse of their
>>>>>> system. I would, of course, prefer to see competent candidates
>>>>>> elected who would work for all of us, but if not that, I'll take
>>>>>> the incompetent ones over a competent
>>>>> enemy.
>>>>>> On 5/11/2012 1:47 PM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
>>>>>>> But if Caroline had won, that would not have been a plus for true
>>>>>> democracy.
>>>>>>> In fact, it could have been used as an argument against it.
>>>>>>> Whether or not the lawyer who won had functioned, at least he was
>>>>>>> nominally competent to function. I have recently come across a
>>>>>>> number of examples of how incredibly stupid and unthinking a lot
>>>>>>> of people appear to be. If people haven't been properly educated,
>>>>>>> if they're not truly literate, and if they are not provided with
>>>>>>> accurate information by the media, the will of the majority can
>>>>>>> be a nightmare. The vote for Keith Judd in West Virginia is an
>>>>>>> example, if those people voted for a white criminal because they
>>>>>>> don't like having an African American
>>>>>> president.
>>>>>>> Miriam
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From:blind-democracy-bounces@octothorp.org
>>>>>>> [mailto:blind-democracy-bounces@octothorp.org] On Behalf Of Roger
>>>>>>> Loran Bailey
>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, May 11, 2012 12:54 PM
>>>>>>> To: Blind Democracy Discussion List
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Undemocratic Democrats
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> By the way, speaking of so-called "responsible" candidates, I
>>>>>>> just thought of something. One time something happened -- I don't
>>>>>>> remember exactly what
>>>>>>> -- that made an unexpired term for prosecutor to be up for election.
>>>>>>> The entire term that was left was less than two months, but the
>>>>>>> laws demanded that someone be elected to fill it and none of the
>>>>>>> usual lawyers wanted the job for such a short time. The filing
>>>>>>> deadline passed
>>>>>> and no one had filed.
>>>>>>> The spot on the ballot had absolutely no name. A friend of mine
>>>>>>> named Caroline jokingly decided to run. By the way, I have told
>>>>>>> you guys something about her before. She was the college student
>>>>>>> I knew whose room mate called me the lurker of the hallway.
>>>>>>> Anyway, she was still a college student when she started her
>>>>>>> campaign. It was just a joke campaign. She had no expectation of
>>>>>>> actually winning and she did not file and her campaign consisted
>>>>>>> of just asking her friends to write in her name. They all agreed
>>>>>>> to do so too and I, for one, did write in her name. Well, just
>>>>>>> before the election there was a certain lawyer who announced that
>>>>>>> he would reluctantly run as a write in candidate just to ensure
>>>>>>> that someone responsible would be there to fill the unexpired term.
>>>>>>> After the election it was announced that he did win and the
>>>>>>> number of write in votes he got was
>>>> also announced.
>>>>>>> It was a very low number of votes. It was obvious that the vast
>>>>>>> majority of voters
>>>>>> just skipped voting for anyone for that office.
>>>>>>> The write in votes for anyone else was not announced at all and
>>>>>>> the impression that was given by the news media was that no one
>>>>>>> else had gotten any votes. Caroline, however, counted up the
>>>>>>> votes that her friends assured her that they had cast for her and
>>>>>>> you know
>> what?
>>>>>>> She had lost to that lawyer by only about five votes. If that
>>>>>>> lawyer had not taken on the candidacy she would have won. She
>>>>>>> would have been completely incompetent as a prosecutor, of
>>>>>>> course, but I don't think it
>>>>>> would have made a difference.
>>>>>>> The guy who did take the job did nothing in his less than two months.
>>>>>>> He did not prosecute anyone. He was only a seat warmer until the
>>>>>>> next prosecutor took over. Damn! I wish Caroline had won. I love
>>>>>>> to see bourgeois politicians shaken up by things like that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 5/11/2012 11:29 AM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
>>>>>>>> But didn't Keith Judd run on the Democratic ticket in the
>>>>>>>> Democratic primary? Or did he run as a third party candidate? If
>>>>>>>> it was the Democratic primary, I wonder how they could stop
>>>>>>>> other people from running in it. Do you remember a few years ago
>>>>>>>> in one of the southern states when someone ran as a Democrat
>>>>>>>> whom no one knew, including the Democratic party apparatus? No
>>>>>>>> one knew how it happened and there were suggestions that the
>>>>>>>> Republicans somehow engineered it so that their candidate could
>>>>>>>> win with no real
>>>> opposition.
>>>>>>>> Miriam
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From:blind-democracy-bounces@octothorp.org
>>>>>>>> [mailto:blind-democracy-bounces@octothorp.org] On Behalf Of
>>>>>>>> Roger Loran Bailey
>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, May 11, 2012 11:09 AM
>>>>>>>> To: Blind Democracy Discussion List
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Undemocratic Democrats
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Oh, the coal companies keep up a constant barrage of propagandizing.
>>>>>>>> However, like I said before, I am a lifelong West Virginian
>>>>>>>> right here on the ground in West Virginia and it is very clear
>>>>>>>> to me that the news media, including NPR, are avoiding even
>>>>>>>> mentioning
>>> something.
>>>>>>>> That is that if Barack Obama had been a white democrat then
>>>>>>>> Keith Judd would have never gotten the vote he did. It is clear,
>>>>>>>> though, that no matter what the specific reasons, it was a vote
>>>>>>>> against Obama rather than a vote for Judd. I am something of a
>>>>>>>> political wonk and I am especially interested in alternative
>> candidates.
>>>>>>>> Yet, I knew nothing at all about Keith Judd before the election.
>>>>>>>> I had never heard of him and knew nothing about his background.
>>>>>>>> I have yet to hear any statement he has made on any issues and
>>>>>>>> do not know how he characterizes himself politically. If I don't
>>>>>>>> know any of that then I think it is a pretty good bet that the
>>>>>>>> vast majority of people who voted for him didn't know anything
>>>>>>>> about him
>>> either.
>>>>>>>> There were just two names on the ballot for president in the
>>>>>>>> Democrat primary and one of
>>>>>>> them was not named Obama.
>>>>>>>> That means that a vote for Judd was a vote against Obama. Yes, I
>>>>>>>> do strongly suspect that most of the vote against Obama was
>>>>>>>> racially motivated, but that should not be a basis on which to
>>>>>>>> deprive the voters of a choice. These Democrat politicians are
>>>>>>>> talking about doing just that. They see a vote for anyone but
>>>>>>>> their own candidates as completely unacceptable. I do not see it
>>>>>>>> as unlikely that in the next session of the legislature the
>>>>>>>> ballot access laws will be changed again to keep alternative
>>>>>>>> candidates such as the Mountain Party off the ballot. It took
>>>>>>>> most of the twentieth century for anyone but a republicrat to
>>>>>>>> get on the ballot in all of the
>>>> state.
>>>>>>>> Finally in 1968 George Wallace did it with his American Party.
>>>>>>>> It is a pity that the first to do it was such a right-wing party.
>>>>>>>> Then it was not done again for at least a couple more decades
>>>>>>>> when, finally, the restrictions were lifted a bit. I remember
>>>>>>>> petitioning for ballot access for the Socialist Workers Party
>>>>>>>> and successfully getting it on the
>>>>>> ballot.
>>>>>>>> More recently the Mountain Party was formed and Denise Giardina
>>>>>>>> ran for governor. By the way, she is the author of a book called
>>>>>>>> Storming Heaven, a novel about the mine wars of 1920. The new
>>>>>>>> ballot laws said that if a candidate for governor got at least
>>>>>>>> one percent of the vote then the party of that candidate would
>>>>>>>> get automatic ballot access until there was a gubernatorial
>>>>>>>> election in which they failed to get that percentage. The
>>>>>>>> Mountain Party has been on the ballot
>>>>> ever since.
>>>>>>>> When it was first formed it was formed to provide Denise
>>>>>>>> Giardina a party platform to run on her main issue of opposition
>>>>>>>> to mountaintop removal mining, a really environmentally
>>>>>>>> devastating kind
>>>> of mining.
>>>>>>>> Since then it has been pretty much taken over by Green Party
>>>>>>>> advocates so
>>>>>>> that it is now the West Virginia incarnation of the Green Party.
>>>>>>> I expect that Jill Stein will be on the top spot of the Mountain
>>>>>>> Party ballot line this fall.
>>>>>>>> Nevertheless, whenever the Republicrat politicians even mention
>>>>>>>> the Mountain Party they do so with a derisive laugh or a sneer
>>>>>>>> and often complain about how they just make the ballot too
>>>>>>>> complicated and draw attention away from "serious" and "responsible"
>>>>>>>> candidates. I fully expect that the strong showing of Keith Judd
>>>>>>>> will be used as an excuse to try to exclude the Mountain Party
>>>>>>>> and all other alternative parties from the ballot in the future.
>>>>>>>> That is exactly what happened when Eugene Debs nearly carried
>>>>>>>> the state in the early twentieth century. The election laws are
>>>>>>>> made by Republicrats to ensure that only Republicrats get
>>>>>>>> elected and this is an example of just
>>>>>>> that.
>>>>>>>> Think about it. Even when when a large proportion of the voters
>>>>>>>> vote for an alternative candidate they feel perfectly
>>>>>>>> comfortable in openly calling for measures to prevent that from
>>>>>>>> ever happening again. They completely dismiss the fact that an
>>>>>>>> alternative candidate got a significant portion of the vote and
>>>>>>>> openly discuss how to keep people from voting for one again. Not
>>>>>>>> only is that undemocratic, but it is utterly arrogantly
>>>>>>>> undemocratic. If they are not going to allow the voters a choice
>>>>>>>> and if they are not going to take the vote of the voters
>>>>>>>> seriously then why even have an election at all? I think they
>>>>>>>> would really prefer to not have elections, but they cannot do it
>>>>>>>> and still maintain the illusion of democracy. This is further
>>>>>>>> evidence,
>>>>>>> though, that bourgeois elections are a farce. They rig it so that
>>>>>>> they cannot lose.
>>>>>>>> When they feel safe they will loosen the rigging so that it will
>>>>>>>> look more democratic, but as soon as they see that the people
>>>>>>>> might not be in a mood to go along with them the rerig it again.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 5/11/2012 10:14 AM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
>>>>>>>>> The story on NPR was quite objective. But it did make clear
>>>>>>>>> that the vote was basically an anti-Obama vote rather than a
>>>>>>>>> vote for Keith Judd who is in jail and, if I remember correctly, a
> felon.
>>>>>>>>> The Democrats may be undemocratic, but what does the vote show
>>>>>>>>> about the electorate who certainly didn't vote against obama
>>>>>>>>> because he has been too friendly to the banks or has continued
>>>>>>>>> the war in Afghanistan. The NPR story mentioned people's anger
>>>>>>>>> at him because they feel he isn't friendly enough to the coal
>> industry.
>>>>>>>>> They think his policies will remove all of their jobs. It also
>>>>>>>>> mentioned that the coal companies have been doing a good deal
>>>>>>>>> of propagandizing among
>>>>>>> the people.
>>>>>>>>> Miriam
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>> From:blind-democracy-bounces@octothorp.org
>>>>>>>>> [mailto:blind-democracy-bounces@octothorp.org] On Behalf Of
>>>>>>>>> Roger Loran Bailey
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2012 11:35 PM
>>>>>>>>> To: Blind Democracy Discussion List
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Undemocratic Democrats
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You will recall that a couple of days ago I was discussing how
>>>>>>>>> that when Eugene Debs of the Socialist Party nearly beat
>>>>>>>>> Woodrow Wilson in West Virginia the state legislature promptly
>>>>>>>>> passed very stringent election laws that made it virtually
>>>>>>>>> impossible for anyone but a Republicrat to get on the West
>>>>>>>>> Virginia ballot for nearly the rest of the twentieth century.
>>>>>>>>> Well, it is happening again. I just got through watching the
>>>>>>>>> eleven o'clock news and democrat politicians are in a tizzy
>>>>>>>>> over Keith Judd's
>>>>>>>>> 41 percent of the primary vote this past Tuesday. They are
>>>>>>>>> especially upset that in five counties he actually won
>>>>>>>> by wide margins.
>>>>>>>>> They are talking about how the next session of the legislature
>>>>>>>>> has to tighten the ballot access laws so that this can never
>>>>>>>>> happen
>>> again.
>>>>>>>>> In the meantime they are looking at how they can tighten up the
>>>>>>>>> ballot access from within the Democrat party itself. The
>>>>>>>>> reporter who interviewed them was obviously in full agreement
>>>>>>>>> with them, using words like responsible. I could not help but
>>>>>>>>> think that if I had been that reporter I would have asked this
>>>>>>>>> question. Since you are so anxious to subvert the will of the
>>>>>>>>> voters then isn't it about time to change the name of the
>>>>>>>>> Democrat party to something
>>> else?
>>>>>>>>> After all, you
>>>>>>>> Democrats are obviously not in favor of democracy.
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Blind-Democracy mailing list
>>>>>>>>> Blind-Democracy@octothorp.org
>>>>>>>>> http://www.octothorp.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-democracy
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Blind-Democracy mailing list
>>>>>>>>> Blind-Democracy@octothorp.org
>>>>>>>>> http://www.octothorp.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-democracy
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Blind-Democracy mailing list
>>>>>>>> Blind-Democracy@octothorp.org
>>>>>>>> http://www.octothorp.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-democracy
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Blind-Democracy mailing list
>>>>>>>> Blind-Democracy@octothorp.org
>>>>>>>> http://www.octothorp.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-democracy
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Blind-Democracy mailing list
>>>>>>> Blind-Democracy@octothorp.org
>>>>>>> http://www.octothorp.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-democracy
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Blind-Democracy mailing list
>>>>>>> Blind-Democracy@octothorp.org
>>>>>>> http://www.octothorp.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-democracy
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Blind-Democracy mailing list
>>>>>> Blind-Democracy@octothorp.org
>>>>>> http://www.octothorp.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-democracy
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Blind-Democracy mailing list
>>>>>> Blind-Democracy@octothorp.org
>>>>>> http://www.octothorp.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-democracy
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Blind-Democracy mailing list
>>>>> Blind-Democracy@octothorp.org
>>>>> http://www.octothorp.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-democracy
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Blind-Democracy mailing list
>>>>> Blind-Democracy@octothorp.org
>>>>> http://www.octothorp.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-democracy
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Blind-Democracy mailing list
>>>> Blind-Democracy@octothorp.org
>>>> http://www.octothorp.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-democracy
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Blind-Democracy mailing list
>>>> Blind-Democracy@octothorp.org
>>>> http://www.octothorp.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-democracy
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Blind-Democracy mailing list
>>> Blind-Democracy@octothorp.org
>>> http://www.octothorp.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-democracy
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Blind-Democracy mailing list
>>> Blind-Democracy@octothorp.org
>>> http://www.octothorp.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-democracy
>> _______________________________________________
>> Blind-Democracy mailing list
>> Blind-Democracy@octothorp.org
>> http://www.octothorp.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-democracy
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Blind-Democracy mailing list
>> Blind-Democracy@octothorp.org
>> http://www.octothorp.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-democracy
> _______________________________________________
> Blind-Democracy mailing list
> Blind-Democracy@octothorp.org
> http://www.octothorp.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-democracy
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blind-Democracy mailing list
> Blind-Democracy@octothorp.org
> http://www.octothorp.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-democracy
_______________________________________________
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