Miriam,
Yes. Both you and I know this through our first hand aging process.
But younger people, both blind and sighted, even when really trying to relate, will not truly learn until they are one day experiencing the effects first hand.
As wise as I believed myself to be, and as understanding, I have had many a shock as my old body begins to fall in on itself. It sounds to me as if you have passed me in the crumbling department. But I still see a fresh, youthful, vigorous Miriam through your emails. So, stay as young inside your head as you can.
Carl Jarvis
----- Original Message -----From: Miriam VieniSent: Saturday, December 15, 2012 6:48 AMSubject: RE: george carlinCarl,
Of course, the older people who have been sighted until late in life, easily
accept everyone's conception of them as dependent and helpless. After all,
they have been part of the sighted world and had that same conception. But
the elderly person who has been blind and competent in the past, and who is
used to fighting that definition of incompetence and dependence, has more to
contend with.
Miriam
________________________________
From: blind-democracy-bounces@octothorp.org
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounces@octothorp.org] On Behalf Of Carl Jarvis
Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2012 12:57 AM
To: Blind Democracy Discussion List
Subject: Re: george carlin
Miriam,
You touch on an important point...well, actually several good points.
First, I was one of those who had to unlearn much of my teaching approach
when moving from the younger, VR eligible blind, to the Older, newly blind,
and often multiple disabled people.
Second, Speaking from my personal observation, I agree with you that younger
people, both blind and sighted, regardless of their membership in the NFB or
the ACB, have unrealistic expectations for older newly blind people.
Third, One of the great frustrations for people, who in their youth were
competent, active, productive blind people, is the aging process. As we
become older and begin experiencing other disabilities, and find that our
blindness skills are not as sharp as they once were, we begin being treated
as bumbling old fools by the younger people around us, even by our own
children. And the sad situation is that often there is nothing we can do
about it. Either we fight it, or we decide that we are completing the
cycle, going from dependency to independent and back to dependency again.
Carl Jarvis
----- Original Message -----
From: Miriam Vieni <mailto:miriamvieni@optonline.net>
To: 'Blind Democracy Discussion List'
<mailto:blind-democracy@octothorp.org>
Sent: Friday, December 14, 2012 1:01 PM
Subject: RE: george carlin
Carl,
I imagine that the people who've actually worked with an elderly
population
who've recently become blind, have always realized that there are
differences between that population and the younger people, or if
they
didn't know when they began doing the work, they had to have learned
this
quickly enough. And I don't think it's just NFB people whose
theoretical
framework doesn't take older folks into account. Younger, healthy,
competent
ACB members have similar attitudes. Then there's the group of blind
people
who were highly competent when they were younger and healthy, and
whose
capabilities change with age. I don't know that anyone has thought
about the
needs of this group in a systematic manner. But I can think of
several
totally blind men, including my husband, who became really ill as
they aged
and whose capabilities were radically reduced. And there are the
rest of us
who are losing health and capability a bit at a time, and also
who've moved
from being partially sighted to being totally blind or almost
totally blind
and we don't fit into any category. And certainly there is no real
rehab
money available to us, plus, we don't have a whole lot of time.
Miriam
________________________________
From: blind-democracy-bounces@octothorp.org
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounces@octothorp.org] On Behalf Of Carl
Jarvis
Sent: Friday, December 14, 2012 10:56 AM
To: Blind Democracy Discussion List
Subject: Re: george carlin
Miriam and All,
Hopefully the NFB is beginning to understand the vast differences
between
healthy young blind and partially blind people, and those of the
older
population who are just beginning to deal with vision loss.
When I first worked in the department of services for the blind, I
was an
active member of the NFB. I was still young, and very focused on
the lack
of good training and the difficulties of good placements for those
able
bodied people wanting work.
When I became director of the OTC, my center was very similar to the
old
Iowa Commission Model.
It was effective for younger folks.
But when I left the agency and set up my own program, serving older
blind
and vision impaired people, I discovered an entirely different
world. My
friends in the NFB urged me to be as hard nosed as I'd been when
running the
OTC. But I learned in short order that few of them knew what the
senior
citizens were dealing with.
I won't go into the differences except to say, you can't put
Band-Aids on
open wounds and expect good results. You can't take people dealing
with
many age related issues and turn them into confident blind people.
You
can't take a person who has used sight for 70-80 years and expect
them to
pick up an entire new way of living life. Especially you will not
do that
in three or four one hour visits.
We need to begin serving people's real needs instead of trying to
fit them
into our Blind Model.
Carl Jarvis
----- Original Message -----
From: ted chittenden <mailto:tchittenden@cox.net>
To: Blind Democracy Discussion List
<mailto:blind-democracy@octothorp.org>
Sent: Friday, December 14, 2012 6:11 AM
Subject: Re: george carlin
Chuck:
You are correct. Most of the differences between the congenitally
blind and those who lose sight later in life (particularly from the
teenage
years onward) have to do with not only the sense of loss by the
latter group
but also that group's demonstrably being better able to relate to
their
sighted friends and comrades. If David C. ever gets some time to
respond to
your comments (he and I have verbally discussed this idea in the
past), I
hope he can shed more light on this subject with his counciling and
psychiatric background. Anyway, what I do know now is that there is
a period
of socialization that sighted people go through during their teenage
years
where they learn to interact visually with other sighted people that
completely excludes the congenitally blind.
--
Ted Chittenden
Every story has at least two sides if not more.
---- ckrugman@sbcglobal.net wrote:
again I'm going through old posts that I missed and we have
discussed this
in our local NFB chapter. Another member and I feel that there are
significant differences in some areas for those of us who were born
blind
and those who have lost sight especially at an older age as needs
and
perceptions are very different. While I have an understanding of
what people
go through with vision loss it is through my clinical training which
is
totally different from my experience as I have always had some
travel vision
that has never changed so never having had something to lose I don't
feel
the loss other than from the standpoint of it being an inconvenience
or a
nuisance at times. I think though in some ways the NFB has mellowed
in its
stances as they realize that for various reasons there are going to
be some
people who will never master Braille. I remember kids that I went to
school
with before transferring to neighborhood schools that never could
read
Braille that well.
Chuck
----- Original Message -----
From: "alice dampman humel" <alicedh@verizon.net>
To: "Blind Democracy Discussion List"
<blind-democracy@octothorp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2012 2:07 PM
Subject: Re: george carlin
> NFB doesn't see any difference between totally blind and
> partially sighted, a little bit of phraseology that has always
> amused me...why not partially blind rather than partially
> sighted? ...is this similar to glass half empty, glass half full?
> ...so they don't see any difference...sort of like: "If I can't
> see you, then you can't see me," or the even better animal from
> Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: If you can't see me, then I
> can't see you." If they don't believe there's a difference
> between being totally blind and having even the tiniest amount of
> vision, they should ask a few people who have been in both
> swimming pools. It's sort of like the eternally ongoing debate
> about the existence of God...whether or not you or I or anybody
> does or does not believe in him, he either exists or he doesn't,
> and no matter how many peoople believe or don't believe, it
> doesn't affect that either/or condition one whit.
> Wouldn't it be nice if we could say, "I don't believe in war" or
> "I don't believe in gross social and economic inequity" and they
> would just go away, poof, disappear?
> Alice
> alicedh@verizon.net
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Miriam Vieni" <miriamvieni@optonline.net>
> To: "'Blind Democracy Discussion List'"
> <blind-democracy@octothorp.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2012 2:35 PM
> Subject: RE: george carlin
>
>
> I haven't listened to this yet, but I thought it was NFB who
> refuses to see
> any difference between people who are partially sighted and those
> who are
> totally blind.
>
> Miriam
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: blind-democracy-bounces@octothorp.org
> [mailto:blind-democracy-bounces@octothorp.org] On Behalf Of Roger
> Loran
> Bailey
> Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2012 12:30 PM
> To: Blind Democracy Discussion List
> Subject: Re: george carlin
>
>
> Some of these terms he mentions are not really euphemisms. They
> are just
> precise language. For example, partially sighted is not the same
> as blind. I
> suppose that a partially sighted person might be blind, but a
> blind person
> is not necessarily partially sighted. Sometimes it is necessary
> to
> distinguish between the partially sighted and the totally blind
> person.
> While he does mention some absurdities in language he lumps
> precise terms
> right in together with them. I forget which television actor it
> is, but
> there is one who calls all birds chickens and all rodents rats.
> He purports
> that he is just being plain spoken. Maybe so, but he makes it
> difficult to
> communicate when the subject is cockatoos or squirrels.
>
> On 6/6/2012 10:30 AM, R. E. Driscoll Sr wrote:
>
> All:
>
> The following is a link to a George Carlin You Tube.
>
>
>
>
http://search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0oGdNRVaM9PnxgA8FUPxQt.;_ylu=X3oDMTByZWgwN28
>
5BHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMQRjb2xvA3NrMQR2dGlkAw--/SIG=120c5baqp/EXP=1339021525/**htt
> p%3a//www.youtube.com/watch%3fv=CNk_kzQCclo
>
>
> This worked for me when I sent the message to myself.
>
> R. E. Driscoll, Sr.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
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